Silent Recording with the Zoom H6 - Advice Needed

babysnake

So in these surreal and extraordinary lockdown measures, I am seeking to set up a simple recording set-up whereby I can get busy upstairs in my music room anytime, day or night, and not cause any disturbance to anyone else in the building. I am into Ambient, Shoegaze and Drone types of sounds and make soundpieces for video, art installations and also just for me....normally I would just put a SM57 in front of my amp, but in this new scenario I want to use my H6 recorder and place it at the end of my effects chain (I don't have a mixer here) and record in Stereo straight to SD card. So my question is...without using a mixing desk, how do I get the best possible audio quality into the H6? H6 inputs are combi XLR/TRS type and I come out stereo from my last pedal (ditto X2). I have tried going straight to the H6 from the ditto but the results were disappointing. Any suggestions would be much appreciated. Cheers!

steamabacus

What are your other pedals? You will ideally need some kind of preamp/amp sim/cab sim pedal in the chain, most likely placed after your usual overdrive/distortion pedals but before your stereo ambient affects.

Without that, you may get away with totally clean sounds with a bit of careful eq but anything into overdriven territory won't sound great. You really need some kind of emulation of what the speaker is doing, whether that be analogue (cheaper, less authentic) or digital (more authentic but with all the accompanying digital 'foibles' that concern many players).

There are any number of pedals that will do the job these days from cheap to very expensive. At the cheapest end, the Joyo American Sound pedal comes highly recommended on this forum - personally, I've used the Award-Session JD-10 for many, many years.

Another possible solution if you have an amp that has an fx send/preamp out that operates while the amp is in standby (and thus silent) is a digital IR (Impulse Response) based cab simulator after the amp's fx send. Again, there are cheap to expensive options (and you can even get combined loadbox/cab sims that will take a feed from your amp's speaker out). Again, at the cheaper end the Mooer Radar seems to be quite popular (and will even digitally emulate the power amp as well as the cab simulation).

rico

In your situation i'd maybe think about an instrument interface then use a DAW with a modelling software.

babysnake

thanks for the responses guys...my signal chain is often something like:
Guitar - monsterpiece fuzz or lunar module fuzz or both - volume pedal - cmat signa drive - tremolo - El capistan - Neunaber stereo wet - Ditto x2 - Amp...
Normally I would use my Vox Heritage AC15 for the ambient playing but I also have a JVM 410 and it has an emulated line out! Could that be a possible solution? 

goldtop

Yes on the JVM's emulated output. Something like a Mooer Radar might be more flexible.

babysnake

@steamabacus & @goldtop so if I utilise the JVM's emulated line out how would that affect the chain?  Should I put my dirt pedals and volume pedal before the JVM input then out of the emulated line out and into the modulation/delay/reverb/looper

pintspiller

Modulation/delay/reverb/looper into the effects loop

goldtop

babysnake said:

@steamabacus & @goldtop so if I utilise the JVM's emulated line out how would that affect the chain?  Should I put my dirt pedals and volume pedal before the JVM input then out of the emulated line out and into the modulation/delay/reverb/looper

That would/should work fine. I don't know that Marshall well, but there's a small chance that the emulated output is hotter than the inputs of your mod/etc pedals can accept. Bear that in mind, and if there's an output level control for it, start with it lowish.

Hang on (Googles) ...

OK, I see that the emulated output is a balanced XLR, not an unbalanced jack. So you'd most likely got a small 'gotcha' for going into your mod pedal (unless that takes balanced signals on TRS). So ... (thinks) it might be better to put your mod/etc/looper pedals in the amp's FX loop and go from the emulated output to the H6. But then what about stereo...? Hmmm

As always, there are many ways to hook it up, and some may be better than others.

steamabacus

Yes, the emulated line out would be fine but you need to sort out an XLR - jack cable. I assume if you're doing ambient-type stuff you will want to keep it stereo and so you will want the ambient effects and looper after the amp emulated out rather than in its effects loop.

I'm not familiar with the JVM's emulated out but a mate had a JCM900 with an 'emulated out' that wasn't too great (certainly worse than the analogue speaker emulation on my Award-Session JD-20). I know the emulated output on the JCM900 worked in standby but it would be a good idea to check this is the same on the JVM.

Definitely worth trying the emulated out but you would likely get 'better' results from using its effects send and something like the Mooer Radar to digitally emulate power amp and speaker.

Depending on the exact style of your music, I think ambient/drone/looping type situations are easier to record direct than conventional song-based guitar playing - you just have to give up preconceptions on what makes an 'effective' tone and work with what you have creatively. Don't expect 'in the room' sounds. But different can be good. Robert Fripp used a DI'd fuzz pedal when he and Eno developed his Frippertronics tape looping.

I started using DI'd guitar back in the mid nineties when working with ambient keyboard/sampler-based musicians - everything direct-to-desk - and at first I just used my normal guitar pedals straight in and found what worked and what didn't. Fairly soon though I got the JD-10 and it was a game-changer, even though by today's standards it's a pretty low-tech solution to amp emulation. Most of my playing now is DI'd studio stuff and 'my tones' in that situation aren't the same as 'my tones' in a live band situation. They're two entirely different environments for me.

babysnake

@goldtop @steamabacus ; ok so the JVM's attenuated line out does function while on standby and it does have a cab sim on it (perhaps not the best) but there is no way to attenuate the signal any further...
My instincts are saying use something else in my chain...would something like the American Sound solve the whole thing? Or a Sansamp GT2? Or even just a stereo DI between the looper and the H6?

babysnake

@steamabacus much appreciation! 
So when you got the Session preamp was the gamechanger that you could now put the session preamp between your drive/fuzz pedals and the desk and get a more authentic tone?

babysnake

@goldtop much appreciation!
I do feel that it's missing the point a bit having a 100w Marshall cooking away for hrs on end in order to achieve acceptable silent recording...I would rather a small outlay into another piece of gear that may likely bring better results.

steamabacus

Yes, and moreover it had some kind of 'feel' to it. What really won me over was plugging it dry into my hifi .. and still being able to enjoy playing.

Certainly the neatest solution is something like the American Sound or SansAmp added to your pedal chain. The AMT F1 preamp gets a lot of love too. I have the AMT V1 (vox-style, the F1 is fender-style) and it's pretty good but I prefer the JD-10 (which is long-discontinued). That might be because I am so familiar with it after all these years.

There is a lot of choice at various price points - the Two-notes Le Clean, The Victory valve preamps, AMT, SansAmp, Joyo ... and that's just the purely analogue solutions.

babysnake

@steamabacus very cool...it is as I thought and I think we are nearly there! So just to make my intentions clear, I am actually going "all in" for setting up a silent room here. As you said, my style of music lends itself very nicely to this method of recording, achieving an authentic drive tone is the last piece of the puzzle. I have an Allen & Heath MixWizard 3 incoming. I will have it here in a month. And so bearing this in mind, what might you suggest to get me up and running now, but that would also be a solid purchase considering my future studio plans.

steamabacus

I'm always going to say a JD-10 if you can find one (but not everybody likes them)

Logically, though, an AMT V1 makes a lot of sense if you are used to playing through a Vox AC15. It has an analogue speaker sim but that can be switched off so you could upgrade to some kind of modern IR based speaker sim (Mooer, Two-notes, etc) in future if you felt the need. Very well built pedals but bear in mind they need 12V and, in my experience, can be a bit touchy about cheaper generic wall-warts. Mine came with a two-pin supply that needed a shaver adapter and was a bit unwieldy. A cheaper 12V supply I had caused a bit of noise. I bought a better quality 12V wall-wart and that was fine.

steamabacus

Burgs' demo...

babysnake

@steamabacus thanks so much for all your time and effort in helping me organise my thoughts here - I do feel that I am on firmer ground now. I have just been looking at the Laney IRT pulse and I must say that it also seems like a solid candidate! It offers cab sim, re-amping, usb out, line in, headphone out and a balanced output to go straight to desk. It also sounds very good in the demos...nice cleans but then goes all the way! Looks like it could be an excellent pedal platform too...what do you think?

steamabacus

I'm not familiar with that, sorry.

babysnake

@steamabacus ... just found and copy/paste this post by Stuart of Award Session regarding his JD10....Interesting! Whatever I end up doing at the moment I will definitely remain on the lookout for one of these... 

Well, a little explanation is needed here. The Award-Session JD10 MKI is exactly the same as the Morley JD10 apart from the silk screen details on the case. It was designed by me for Jerry Donahue primarilly as a direct recording preamp, but with guitar-pedal-amp (stomp box) use as a secondary mode of use. The MKI was used on most of the Hellecasters albums by Jerry, John and Will. Only Jerry used it exclusively on the albums, the others alternated between JD10s and their amps.

The only album JD10 was NOT used on, was their first 'Return of the Hellecasters.' At that time the JD10 did not exist, but Jerry did use the JD10 predecessor the AW10 'SessionMaster MKII' rackmount unit - three still in regular use at Abbey Road Studios for advert and jingle guitar parts to save much time micing up amps! AW10's unique slightly knarly sound when set up as 'on-the-edge' distortion caused Jerry to request some changes to JD10 MKI...

The JD10 MKII is exactly the same layout, but the distortion circuitry was updated to make the tone a little more knarly, like a single ended class A output tube would be. That means asymmetric distortion, where one half cycle has a different distortion shape to the other and starts their distortion at different amplitude levels for each half cycle. This increases the second or even harmonic content of the sound. Further, many players found the JD10 too bright when used as a stomp box, so we dealt with that issue too. A little top end was attenuated when the speaker simulator was not in use, so the stomp box mode sounds a little darker over the MKI.

The MKI is not better than the MKII... they are just different. Some people like the MKI others prefer the MKII... and vice versa. Once you put a product on the market and then later alter it, it always produces split camps of opinions. We can never please everyone... so we don't try!

If there was not any difference between a MKI and a MKII, there would not be any point to making a MKII? So anyone should expect there to be some differences!

The JD20 circuitry is practically identical to the JD10 MKI, except the gain switch was moved to an extra footswitch and we added a balance control to stop the leap in volume when switching between classic and rock modes. Simple really and brought about by customer requests. However, we only made about 100, as it collided with the introduction of digital pedals and, overnight, dealers wanted to sell only digital pedals because they looked better value in terms of what they could do. This industry is influenced heavily by FASHION, so we decided not to re-make it untill the digital thing found its haters. However, we never got around to bringing it back!

steamabacus

babysnake said:

@steamabacus ... just found and copy/paste this post by Stuart of Award Session regarding his JD10....Interesting! Whatever I end up doing at the moment I will definitely remain on the lookout for one of these... 

Well, a little explanation is needed here. The Award-Session JD10 MKI is exactly the same as the Morley JD10 apart from the silk screen details on the case. It was designed by me for Jerry Donahue primarilly as a direct recording preamp, but with guitar-pedal-amp (stomp box) use as a secondary mode of use. The MKI was used on most of the Hellecasters albums by Jerry, John and Will. Only Jerry used it exclusively on the albums, the others alternated between JD10s and their amps.

The only album JD10 was NOT used on, was their first 'Return of the Hellecasters.' At that time the JD10 did not exist, but Jerry did use the JD10 predecessor the AW10 'SessionMaster MKII' rackmount unit - three still in regular use at Abbey Road Studios for advert and jingle guitar parts to save much time micing up amps! AW10's unique slightly knarly sound when set up as 'on-the-edge' distortion caused Jerry to request some changes to JD10 MKI...

The JD10 MKII is exactly the same layout, but the distortion circuitry was updated to make the tone a little more knarly, like a single ended class A output tube would be. That means asymmetric distortion, where one half cycle has a different distortion shape to the other and starts their distortion at different amplitude levels for each half cycle. This increases the second or even harmonic content of the sound. Further, many players found the JD10 too bright when used as a stomp box, so we dealt with that issue too. A little top end was attenuated when the speaker simulator was not in use, so the stomp box mode sounds a little darker over the MKI.

The MKI is not better than the MKII... they are just different. Some people like the MKI others prefer the MKII... and vice versa. Once you put a product on the market and then later alter it, it always produces split camps of opinions. We can never please everyone... so we don't try!

If there was not any difference between a MKI and a MKII, there would not be any point to making a MKII? So anyone should expect there to be some differences!

The JD20 circuitry is practically identical to the JD10 MKI, except the gain switch was moved to an extra footswitch and we added a balance control to stop the leap in volume when switching between classic and rock modes. Simple really and brought about by customer requests. However, we only made about 100, as it collided with the introduction of digital pedals and, overnight, dealers wanted to sell only digital pedals because they looked better value in terms of what they could do. This industry is influenced heavily by FASHION, so we decided not to re-make it untill the digital thing found its haters. However, we never got around to bringing it back!

I have four of them (3 used in my direct-to-desk home setup - 1 on my board as a conventional overdrive or 'amp channel', two at the end of the chain as stereo speaker emulators - and one spare for using 'out and about'), all Mk1 versions.

The prices have been creeping up over the years, apart from the one I originally bought new (well, ex-demo £100) all mine cost around £40-50 second hand but they seem to be nearer £100 now. The pots have a tendency to go scratchy over the years and will often need a bit of cleaning.

This is a good overview of the two versions of the JD-10 ...

https://effectextra.blogspot.com/2013/08/award-session-jd10.html

babysnake

@steamabacus ; Haha cool...would you mind sharing with me how you go straight to board...what would a typical chain look like in your signal path?