Troubleshoot my tuning issues

mynameistrouble

Hi,

In the past year or so I’ve started to have tuning stability issues with my Gibson firebird. I’ve not been in a band or doing recording, just doing various stamina and speed building exercises which don’t necessarily need to be perfectly in tune, so I hadn’t  been paying much attention to the tuning so long as it was near enough.

However after a jam with other musicians a few months ago it was really apparent how badly it was slipping. More recently i changed down a gauge from 11s to 10s and got one of the steinberg tuners (low e) fixed, did a rudimentary setup and made sure i stretched the strings until there was (apparently) no more play, but there are still issues.

The worst offender is the low e, which goes way out, usually sharp but there’s no obvious pattern. The higher strings are more stable, but I used to be able to play a whole set without much movement, and now it seems like it’s never actually in tune across all the strings.

Where do i start with troubleshooting this? I won’t be going to a tech anytime soon!

gary_mac

I'd be checking the nut slots first. 
An easy way to check is to first tune the guitar. Pluck the E or whichever string is giving the problem, press the string down on the far side of the nut , release it. Then check the tuning again, if it's sharp, the string is sticking in the nut slot. It might need some filing or possibly just lubricant.

paulnb57

At first I thought “tuners” but its doubtful if the string goes sharp, so as above I guess it’s the nut, can’t really think of anything else....theres no trem?

mynameistrouble

gary_mac said:

I'd be checking the nut slots first. 
An easy way to check is to first tune the guitar. Pluck the E or whichever string is giving the problem, press the string down on the far side of the nut , release it. Then check the tuning again, if it's sharp, the string is sticking in the nut slot. It might need some filing or possibly just lubricant.

Good trick. Across the board going sharp except the high e, which has been the most stable generally. I’ll get some nut sauce and hopefully that will do the trick.

Fingers crossed and thanks for the help.

mynameistrouble

Okay, reviving this one. 

I cleaned out the nut with a soft toothbrush, used some nut sauce and the problems have almost completely gone.

Almost.

Low E still moves around more than I like. When I play my tele it is rock solid. It just doesn't move no matter how much I play.

What is the next thing to check for to work out where the movement is coming from?

ICBM

How high is the bridge? I came across a modern Firebird recently where it was about half an inch up, due to a very steep neck angle. This means the bridge posts can flex back and forth slightly and the strings stick on the saddles.

A Firebird can only have such a steep neck angle - given that it's a through neck - by design, so I wonder if yours has the same problem... if so you can probably reduce it by raising the tailpiece, but you might have to fit a roller bridge or some other way of reducing friction there.

Funkfingers

Might be worth trying the same press and release trick on the offending string between the saddle and tailpiece. It is possible that the notch in the saddle requires attention with a small round file. 

Speaking of tailpieces, are you top wrapping and how high/low do you set the stop bar? 

mynameistrouble

That sounds like it could be the issue, see pics below of the bridge from both top and bottom:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9wkpte1y4avt2uz/77245771-6988-4F6A-9A7C-F5DB4A030324.jpeg?dl=0

(edit: I keep trying to post the link to the top down shot but dropbox keeps linking to that same pic - if you need the other angle it's in the same 'public' folder as the the 'bottom up' shot)

I must confess to not knowing the correct angle for this kind of bridge - is this just too steep? If so, do I need to loosen the strings before raising the tailpiece?

ICBM

No, that's not it - that's the correct angle, more or less. The one I saw had the bridge literally about half an inch up, spacers under the pickup mounting rings, and even top-wrapped the break angle was too steep.

I would raise the tailpiece a bit further and see if it makes any difference - not under full string tension, and if the studs won't turn use a coin not a screwdriver, that's what they're designed for!

Funkfingers

The break angle between the tailpiece and saddles is fine. The angle from the saddles towards the nut looks downright alarming!

mynameistrouble

ICBM said:

No, that's not it - that's the correct angle, more or less. The one I saw had the bridge literally about half an inch up, spacers under the pickup mounting rings, and even top-wrapped the break angle was too steep.

I would raise the tailpiece a bit further and see if it makes any difference - not under full string tension, and if the studs won't turn use a coin not a screwdriver, that's what they're designed for!

I’ve raised it up a bit so let’s see how that goes.

Obviously, being the idiot that i am i used the enormous screwdriver that was to hand (no coins in sight) and slipped, denting the finish. It’s fairly roadworn as it is but annoying nevertheless!

Thanks for your help guys, it’s great to have this resource particularly when I don’t have recourse to my kneejerk ‘take it to a tech’. About time i finally learned how to do this myself after over 20 years playing...

mynameistrouble

Funkfingers said:

The break angle between the tailpiece and saddles is fine. The angle from the saddles towards the nut looks downright alarming!

How so?

ICBM

Firebirds and SGs always look like that - with only the thickness of the fingerboard above the body and a long neck beyond it, the angle has to be that steep.

It looks worse than it is because the pickup is leaning the wrong way in its mounting ring.

Funkfingers

Ideally, the bridge height adjustment stud inserts should be drilled perpendicular to the string path. 

At any other angle, adjusting the height of the Tune-o-matic bridge simultaneously alters the intonation adjustment. Not by much but enough to screw things up.

ICBM

Funkfingers said:

Ideally, the bridge height adjustment stud inserts should be drilled perpendicular to the string path. 

At any other angle, adjusting the height of the Tune-o-matic bridge simultaneously alters the intonation adjustment. Not by much but enough to screw things up.

That’s true, but when you adjust the action you inevitably affect the intonation because you’re changing the amount of pitch bend as the string is pulled down to the fingerboard, so a tiny extra amount caused by the angle is irrelevant since you have to adjust it anyway.

Perpendicular to the body surface gives the most stable posts, provided the angle on both sides is reasonably similar.

mynameistrouble

Unfortunately that's not done it. 

When I hit the E it doesn't have a consistent note. It may start in tune, but it then pitches up at bit. When I hit it again it does the same thing - it is the correct pitch for an instant then shifts up. 

Any ideas? Busted machine head?

Funkfingers

Snagging at a node point. Try the press and release test between the nut and tuner. Try it between saddle and tailpiece. 

The other possibilities are the condition of the string locking mechanism inside the Steinberger ‘heads and whether the string wraps have been broken, allowing slippage.

prowla

Do you bend the strings before you insert them into the tuners?

Funkfingers

Just poke the strings through the holes in the posts and pull them reasonably taut. The locking mechanism does the bending for you.