UAD latency question

lento

Having just got an Apollo Twin MkII I am surprised to see fairly high latency figures on my Windows 10 PC running Cubase Pro 10.5.

I have an i7 Lenovo laptop with Thunderbolt 3 and using an Apple Tb 3 to Tb 2 adaptor with an Apple Tb 2 cable.
Latency figures on the Input are always much higher then the output.
With a buffer size of 128 I get an input latency of 9.3ms and output of 3.4ms
Buffer size of 256 - input latency of 12.2ms, output of 6.3ms

Do these figures seem right - I would have thought they should be more or less equal - and lower ?

I am aware that UAD do not totally recommend the Apple adaptor as they have found inconsistency with some Win Systems. Wondering whether the adaptor could be the source ....

octatonic

That is normal.

The 'UAD way" is to use the UA console to track through and monitor off- you will have near zero latency for UAD plugins through the console and you can monitor your signal there.
If you are monitoring your input signal via console it doesn't really matter what the DAW buffer size is but you are limited to UAD plugins to monitor through.

If you want low latency roundtrip and be able to use non UA plugins in the process then a UA interface isn't the way to go.
Presonus or the higher end Focusrite devices will give you sub 3ms for that but once you start adding power hungry plugins you'll incur latency.

Or use an interface with hardware monitoring to monitor without plugins (RME, Focusrite Red, a few others).

Otherwise it is Pro Tools HDX.

lento

Thanks for the answer.

So if it's normal, at least my adaptor and cable are not the issue here. I'm caught between liking the 'sound' and features of the Apollo but preferring to listen and work through Cubase ....

octatonic

lento said:

Thanks for the answer.

So if it's normal, at least my adaptor and cable are not the issue here. I'm caught between liking the 'sound' and features of the Apollo but preferring to listen and work through Cubase ....

There isn't really an easy workaround other than to return the Apollo and get something that allows you to do it.
If you are looking for a super low latency interface then the Presonus Quantum series is worth checking out.

Stuckfast

You can get rid of most of the extra input latency by disabling latency compensation within Console.

lento

Ahaaaa ..... I've yet to fully explore everything in Console so will look at that 

I can work within a 15ms latency for playing VSTi's like Keyscape but playback stutters far too much at a buffer of 128.
Buffer sizes are a bit limited too. There must be a reason for that, I suppose ....
Have experimented with doubling the sample rate and it shaves a few ms off, but I'll be happier to continue at 44.1.

Hopefully I'll report back with an improvement .... 

Pablocrackers

Seems strange to me ive never had any issues with uad stuff its top quality but i usually set the lowest buffer size and turn on low latency mode in logic when tracking and switch to high buffer size when playback and mixing. I use Ni, Akai and Helix instruments monitoring like that with no latency

WiresDreamDisasters

What's your priority - audio recording or VST instruments?

Stuckfast

UA assume you'll be using their plug-ins during tracking, so Console defaults to using an internal buffer for latency compensation. That way you know that signals coming in through plug-in chain (a) on input 1 will remain perfectly in sync with signals coming in through plug-in chain (b) on input 2, and so on.

If you're not using UA plug-ins during tracking you can simply disable it. In fact you can disable it anyway and it probably won't have any bad consequences in most circumstances, unless you do something like route the different sides of a stereo input through different plug-in chains.

lento

Have looked at the latency settings in the Console and the default was Medium.
Switched it off and saw the input latency decrease by a few ms.
Thought that might be enough and ran playback a few times and pounded the keys etc ....

But, after leaving it sat for a while, I came back and as I started to play a piano the stuttering was back - likewise when I hit playback. Adjusted the buffer and the delay compensation settings ... and all was well again !

My drive is an SSD and has never been an issue, ditto with my Focusrite Scarlett using a similar latency.

Priority is VST as I only need the audio side for occasional guitar.

Which is making me think whether the hardware and/or cabling is giving me a problem .....

Edit:
I meant to mention that the stuttering was heavily distorted - if that makes any sense .....

WiresDreamDisasters

Hmmm. I have higher-than-ideal latencies with my Apollo sure. But I don't have any coughing and spluttering. In fact I had way more back in the day with my Scarlett 18i20 and is the main reason I went to a Thunderbolt setup with the Apollo.

I've not messed with my compensation settings either. It's at medium.

The UA stuff *is* known to have higher latencies than other units. But they (in my experience anyway) are super stable.

I'm a fairly even split between audio and VST instruments, but I use a LOT of plugin effects and regularly peg my CPU and end up freezing stuff. But that's after 100+ tracks in a project.

octatonic

Yes it is always going to be a balancing act between latency and performance.

What Stuckfast has said is the best case scenario.
I actually run my Apollo X8 with no delay compensation and it runs fine, but laptops, especially PC laptops, seem to struggle a bit more.
The best I can get out of the Apollo is 4.3ms running delay compensation off and the lowest buffer setting at 48khz.
Or 5.6 ms at 64 buffer.
That ,ay or may not be a problem for you.

Some Focusrite and Presonus boxes get under 3ms.

Pablocrackers

Was gonna ask if the vst is on an external ssd sometimes if the drive isnt fast enough can cause issues. Also i think the bods recommend not having projects / instruments / samples on the same drive as the OS tho coz the computer is trying to read and write on the same drive as well when you are playing not sure if thats a thing but just throwing ideas out there. Good luck!

octatonic

Pablocrackers said:

Was gonna ask if the vst is on an external ssd sometimes if the drive isnt fast enough can cause issues. Also i think the bods recommend not having projects / instruments / samples on the same drive as the OS tho coz the computer is trying to read and write on the same drive as well when you are playing not sure if thats a thing but just throwing ideas out there. Good luck!

It depends on the computer.
On a modern computer with fast solid state storage and lots of RAM then it won't matter to be on the internal drive.
If it is an older machine with a platter based drive then I'd get the audio onto another physical drive.

lento

Can't get anywhere near Octatonic's figures and the strange thing is the CPU is not struggling nor the HD ....

Regarding the drive it's an SSD Samsung EVO external with all VST's. The OS is on an internal SSD. The Lenovo is a T490 i7 - 8565 with 24gb.
All the firmware is up to date, as is Cubase and UAD software.

To rule out any possible malfunction of the (new) Apple Tb adaptor, I'm going to try a StarTech over the weekend one and see if that changes anything

Thanks for all the help and comments, guys   

octatonic

lento said:

Can't get anywhere near Octatonic's figures and the strange thing is the CPU is not struggling nor the HD ....

Regarding the drive it's an SSD Samsung EVO external with all VST's. The OS is on an internal SSD. The Lenovo is a T490 i7 - 8565 with 24gb.
All the firmware is up to date, as is Cubase and UAD software.

To rule out any possible malfunction of the (new) Apple Tb adaptor, I'm going to try a StarTech over the weekend one and see if that changes anything

Thanks for all the help and comments, guys   

Have you disabled  'Input Delay Compensation' in console (see below).

FWIW I'm running a 2019 Mac Pro tower with 160GB of RAM and a different audio interface to you (Apollo X8).
Also a different DAW.

lento

Yes, I disabled the input compensation off after @Stuckfast suggester it earlier.
It did make a difference of shaving a few ms off.
I'm running at 256 samples with a roundtrip latency of 14ms. 
I will experiment for going lower at some point but I can live with this for playability and playback is fine.


I have now got a Startech Tb3 to Tb2 adaptor in the chain (courtesy of a swift Amazon delivery this morning) and all seems to be a lot more stable - no stuttering or distorted playback .... 

This morning, before it arrived, I checked my Lenovo for latest updates, and lo and behold, a Thunderbolt firmware and bios update were installed. I also checked all my USB power management settings (they allow Windows to suspend them to save power) and they were ticked by default ! I unticked all of them.
Also swapped my drive to another port (rather than in a hub)

I don't know whether any of them made a difference ... but it seems stable today    .... and I can get some work done.

octatonic

lento said:

Yes, I disabled the input compensation off after @Stuckfast suggester it earlier.
It did make a difference of shaving a few ms off.
I'm running at 256 samples with a roundtrip latency of 14ms. 
I will experiment for going lower at some point but I can live with this for playability and playback is fine.


I have now got a Startech Tb3 to Tb2 adaptor in the chain (courtesy of a swift Amazon delivery this morning) and all seems to be a lot more stable - no stuttering or distorted playback .... 

This morning, before it arrived, I checked my Lenovo for latest updates, and lo and behold, a Thunderbolt firmware and bios update were installed. I also checked all my USB power management settings (they allow Windows to suspend them to save power) and they were ticked by default ! I unticked all of them.
Also swapped my drive to another port (rather than in a hub)

I don't know whether any of them made a difference ... but it seems stable today    .... and I can get some work done.

Try running at 64 samples.

lento

Wow ! 5.4 ms roundtrip at 64 !
I'll test it all day and if it's stable I couldn't wish for any better 

octatonic

Cool.
You can get lower using different devices, the Presonus Quantum is about half that but you don't have the DSP plugins, Unison etc with that.

If you ever need to use a pair of microphones (like two mics on a guitar cabinet) that have different processing you will need to enable some plugin delay compensation.

WiresDreamDisasters

Huh... interesting... so @lento all you've changed is the cable?

TBH - I've been using a Startech since I got the thing, so this didn't really occur to me.