Musings on Malmsteen

Bezzer

As some of you may know I've been sinking a lot of my practice time into the playing of ol' Yng for the last 6 months or so.  2 goals with that, to improve my speed first and also to try and pick up some of the neo-classical leanings.  Doing this a few things struck me.

Rhythm wise, even when at pretty high speeds (Trilogy Suite Op 5, Anguish and Fear, Seventh Sign, etc) he's pretty damned tight.

Solo wise ... things become a little different.  Now, he's amazing, I am not taking away from the 'Steens ability here at all but actually breaking it down a lot of the perceived accuracy disappears and it appears to be a lot more "just go for it man!"  There's a lot to be said for that of course it just surprised me.  Some of it is clearly set up and played ... other parts very much more "just get the notes in and make sure you land on the right one" ... what am I taking from this?  Mainly it's fine to do that ... at speed sometimes the destination is the important part not the journey so much.

For example there's a run in Far Beyond The Sun which is all grouped 16th notes but the groupings are ... odd!   2 groups of quintuplets followed by 2 groups of sextuplets, pretty standard first bar.  Then we have a quintuplet, a septuplet (with is actually 8 but 2 32nds in there) a  triplet, 2 straight 16ths, and a sextuplet.  Sounds great ... can't believe for a minute that was planned.

Why is this standing out now?  I guess because the last "study" I did was Petrucci who is exactly the opposite.

There's no point to this, as the title suggests ... interested me though.

Have you made any surprising discoveries deep diving on a particular players techniques?

octatonic

Bezzer said:

can't believe for a minute that was planned.

It wasn't.
Malmsteen just solos as fast as he can and damn the tempo of the rest of the track.

Bezzer

Ha ha ... that's a little harsh!  These passages tend to lead somewhere and when you're banging along at 170bpm recording to tape it could be said those discrepancies aren't really audible.

That said, he's latest "blues" album does very much adhere to your comment 

octatonic

Bezzer said:

Ha ha ... that's a little harsh!  These passages tend to lead somewhere and when you're banging along at 170bpm recording to tape it could be said those discrepancies aren't really audible.

That said, he's latest "blues" album does very much adhere to your comment 

It isn't meant to be harsh- it is just what he does.

monquixote

There is a Paul Gilbert video where he talks about switching between being rhythmical and more free form in lead playing.

I can't play that way it just feels wrong.

stratman3142

Bezzer said:

...Solo wise ... things become a little different.  Now, he's amazing, I am not taking away from the 'Steens ability here at all but actually breaking it down a lot of the perceived accuracy disappears and it appears to be a lot more "just go for it man!"  There's a lot to be said for that of course it just surprised me.  Some of it is clearly set up and played ... other parts very much more "just get the notes in and make sure you land on the right one" ... what am I taking from this?  Mainly it's fine to do that ... at speed sometimes the destination is the important part not the journey so much.

For example there's a run in Far Beyond The Sun which is all grouped 16th notes but the groupings are ... odd!   2 groups of quintuplets followed by 2 groups of sextuplets, pretty standard first bar.  Then we have a quintuplet, a septuplet (with is actually 8 but 2 32nds in there) a  triplet, 2 straight 16ths, and a sextuplet.  Sounds great ... can't believe for a minute that was planned...

When looking at transcriptions of fast solos there are often unusual and complex note groupings. I can't remember who said it, or exactly what was said, (I think it might have been Shaun Baxter). IIRC I believe what was said is that sometimes it's best not to think in terms of the precise manner in which it's notated (which is sometimes almost unreadable) but to listen to the original phrase, capture the feel and to think in terms of fitting the notes into the particular time frame.

A player keeps the rhythm in mind and goes for a group of notes, then uses unusual groupings, such as septuplets (or other denominations of tuplets), possibly even speeding up during the phrase, such that they land on the beats they're aiming for.

I'm not sure whether it's partly what EVH meant when he described his soloing as "falling down the stairs and landing on his feet".

The notes might float over the beat and then end at a particular time. I'm no shredder but, when I improvise fast legato phrases, it sometimes feels like the notes are 'floating'. Sometimes I target a beat and sometimes I keep things going and feel my way until I can find a place to land. 

axisus

I say hats off to anyone who can either play that stuff or analyse it. Light years from me.

Bezzer

@stratman3142 yeah, that's sort of what I was getting at.  I think weirdly I was more aware of it with other players, maybe because it's a more definite shift ... as @monquixote says with Paul Gilbert.  Malmsteens playing always sort of felt like it was on point which is why it caught me out when slowing it down.

Eddie is, I think a special case, his phrasing is so unique it's incredibly hard to replicate what he does. Very much pushing and pulling the beat, rushing and laying back.  He's bloody amazing frankly ... and his rhythm playing is incredible.

Bezzer

axisus said:

I say hats off to anyone who can either play that stuff or analyse it. Light years from me.

Wouldn't say I'm close to playing it yet ha ha ... but I can slow down audio ... I can do that

stratman3142

Bezzer said:

@stratman3142 yeah, that's sort of what I was getting at.  I think weirdly I was more aware of it with other players, maybe because it's a more definite shift ... as @monquixote says with Paul Gilbert.  Malmsteens playing always sort of felt like it was on point which is why it caught me out when slowing it down.

Eddie is, I think a special case, his phrasing is so unique it's incredibly hard to replicate what he does. Very much pushing and pulling the beat, rushing and laying back.  He's bloody amazing frankly ... and his rhythm playing is incredible.

I tend to associate the 'floating over the beat' technique as being associated with legato, but some players can do it whilst picking every note.

Years back I ambitiously purchased the Shawn Lane Power Licks and Solos book. I've got as much chance of reading/playing some of that stuff as I have of reading Egyption Heiroglyphics.

When playing fast legato I actually feel it's easiest to float over the beat and target places to land, which is why I'm in awe of Tom Quayle's legato technique and his ability to play so evenly and so rhythmically accurately.

Vibetronic

Bezzer said:

As some of you may know I've been sinking a lot of my practice time into the playing of ol' Yng for the last 6 months or so.  2 goals with that, to improve my speed first and also to try and pick up some of the neo-classical leanings.  Doing this a few things struck me.

Rhythm wise, even when at pretty high speeds (Trilogy Suite Op 5, Anguish and Fear, Seventh Sign, etc) he's pretty damned tight.

Solo wise ... things become a little different.  Now, he's amazing, I am not taking away from the 'Steens ability here at all but actually breaking it down a lot of the perceived accuracy disappears and it appears to be a lot more "just go for it man!"  There's a lot to be said for that of course it just surprised me.  Some of it is clearly set up and played ... other parts very much more "just get the notes in and make sure you land on the right one" ... what am I taking from this?  Mainly it's fine to do that ... at speed sometimes the destination is the important part not the journey so much.

For example there's a run in Far Beyond The Sun which is all grouped 16th notes but the groupings are ... odd!   2 groups of quintuplets followed by 2 groups of sextuplets, pretty standard first bar.  Then we have a quintuplet, a septuplet (with is actually 8 but 2 32nds in there) a  triplet, 2 straight 16ths, and a sextuplet.  Sounds great ... can't believe for a minute that was planned.

Why is this standing out now?  I guess because the last "study" I did was Petrucci who is exactly the opposite.

There's no point to this, as the title suggests ... interested me though.

Have you made any surprising discoveries deep diving on a particular players techniques?

Apologies, meant to reply to this ages ago but then we went on holiday! I've got one of the Chris Brooks books which is all about playing the 'Yng Way' if you fancy borrowing it? I'll dig it out to check. (Also, my Mac just auto-filled 'Yng' to 'Yngwie' - didn't think I'd typed his name that many times!!). 

Vibetronic

it's 'Speed Strategies For Guitar', and is indeed all about the 'Yng Way'. 

Bezzer

@Vibetronic that would be awesome thanks!  Hang on to it until we're allowed out again properly and I can buy you a pint

Vibetronic

Bezzer said:

@Vibetronic that would be awesome thanks!  Hang on to it until we're allowed out again properly and I can buy you a pint

Sounds like a fair trade 

DefaultM

This is why I don't play other people's solos exactly as recorded. If it's something like Hotel California id play the full thing note for note, but take something like a Kirk Hammett solo.
There will be a cool intro to the solo where there's a clear theme, but as it goes on there are licks where I definitely think he's just thought "need to go up the neck here" and I can't see the pattern or logic to the notes.
It must have been something that came second nature to him though, and it sounds great.

Chris_Bradley

I think those "odd" groups etc are the product of his picking technique. Gilbert and Petrucci are pretty stict alternate but Yngwie uses ecomomy picking most of the time and arranges his lines to suit his method of changing strings. Once you look at most of his licks they all follow a pattern and quite often the tab is inncorect, the notes are right but the position not. The Troy Grady cracking the code series on YouTube covers this really well and gives a good insight to Yngwies picking.

grappagreen

 The Troy Grady cracking the code series on YouTube covers this really well and gives a good insight to Yngwies picking.

This - once you understand the way (and why) YM does what he does it's a little easier to do.. I say a little however as he still amazes me and it's been a long time since I walked out of a shop with No Parole from Rock n Roll..