is humidity an issue living in the UK as far as acoustics go

crunchman

drofluf said:

CloudNine said:

crunchman said

Compared with the South, you are likely to be 5C colder outside in winter, may be more than that.   That 5C is enough to make a big difference to relative humidity.   If it's 30% in Scotland, then down here, it will be fine if you don't have your central heating high.

Again, all kinds of assumptions. I think best advice is to just get a hygrometer and stop guessing what your indoor humidity might be based on what you think it is outside, as they are completely different things.   

Sensible advice especially as they’re so cheap relative to a guitar. 

Also ignore what the met office say; I’ve measured 20% difference in humidity between inside and outside. 

It could be higher than that with cold weather outside and high central heating.

I've just found a graph for relative humidity in London.  In January and February this year, the lowest value was 64%.  A lot of the time it was over 80%.  If you have your central heating at a sensible level, you are not going to be too dry in South of England.  Buying a hygrometer is just a waste of money.

thermionic

It wouldn’t be a waste of money if it told you the humidity was over 80%!

drofluf

For the peace of mind it’s the best £6.99 that I’ve ever wasted.

ToneControl

crunchman said:

drofluf said:

CloudNine said:

crunchman said

Compared with the South, you are likely to be 5C colder outside in winter, may be more than that.   That 5C is enough to make a big difference to relative humidity.   If it's 30% in Scotland, then down here, it will be fine if you don't have your central heating high.

Again, all kinds of assumptions. I think best advice is to just get a hygrometer and stop guessing what your indoor humidity might be based on what you think it is outside, as they are completely different things.   

Sensible advice especially as they’re so cheap relative to a guitar. 

Also ignore what the met office say; I’ve measured 20% difference in humidity between inside and outside. 

It could be higher than that with cold weather outside and high central heating.

I've just found a graph for relative humidity in London.  In January and February this year, the lowest value was 64%.  A lot of the time it was over 80%.  If you have your central heating at a sensible level, you are not going to be too dry in South of England.  Buying a hygrometer is just a waste of money.

Strongly disagree

the RH (relative humidity) change when you heat air up (as it enters your house) is not a case of "subtract 20%", it's proportional to the temperature difference

when it is 0C outdoors, with 64% RH 
Then once inside and warmed up to 22C, that air will be at 16.2% RH
-5C gets it down to under 12% RH
-10C gets it to 8.7% RH indoors
See this calculator: https://www.lenntech.com/calculators/humidity/relative-humidity.htm ;

In reality, because you breathe and sweat, indoor air is usually more humid than that, but it's quite possible to get RH below 30% when it's 0C and 64% RH outside

When it's -15C you should be very very careful with your guitars, even if you can't afford £5 for a hygrometer
Go round putting wet towels on radiators, etc.

crunchman

ToneControl said:

crunchman said:

drofluf said:

CloudNine said:

crunchman said

Compared with the South, you are likely to be 5C colder outside in winter, may be more than that.   That 5C is enough to make a big difference to relative humidity.   If it's 30% in Scotland, then down here, it will be fine if you don't have your central heating high.

Again, all kinds of assumptions. I think best advice is to just get a hygrometer and stop guessing what your indoor humidity might be based on what you think it is outside, as they are completely different things.   

Sensible advice especially as they’re so cheap relative to a guitar. 

Also ignore what the met office say; I’ve measured 20% difference in humidity between inside and outside. 

It could be higher than that with cold weather outside and high central heating.

I've just found a graph for relative humidity in London.  In January and February this year, the lowest value was 64%.  A lot of the time it was over 80%.  If you have your central heating at a sensible level, you are not going to be too dry in South of England.  Buying a hygrometer is just a waste of money.

Strongly disagree

the RH (relative humidity) change when you heat air up (as it enters your house) is not a case of "subtract 20%", it's proportional to the temperature difference

when it is 0C outdoors, with 64% RH 
Then once inside and warmed up to 22C, that air will be at 16.2% RH
-5C gets it down to under 12% RH
-10C gets it to 8.7% RH indoors
See this calculator: https://www.lenntech.com/calculators/humidity/relative-humidity.htm ;

In reality, because you breathe and sweat, indoor air is usually more humid than that, but it's quite possible to get RH below 30% when it's 0C and 64% RH outside

When it's -15C you should be very very careful with your guitars, even if you can't afford £5 for a hygrometer
Go round putting wet towels on radiators, etc.

Scotland may be different, but in the South of England, it's rarely below 0C.  -10C is unheard of where I live, let alone -15C.  For London, where I live, the coldest month is January, with an average temperature of 5C.

Even with your central heating set at 22C, which I would find unbearably hot, a more normal relative humidity outside of 75% gives 26% inside according to that calculator, with the outside air at 5C.  Allowing for the moisture we breathe out, and drying clothes indoors etc, it's not going to drop below 30% for any extended period of time, if it does at all.

If you have your central heating at a more sensible temperature, then it's not an issue in the South of England.

Like I said above, in Scotland it's colder so things are different, so it may well be different for you, especially if you pay the extra to cook yourself with your central heating.

malcolmkindness

I always thought that humidity was not an issue in these islands until a few years ago a bridge pulled explosively from a high end Irish made guitar, apparently due to dryness.
Since then I have been much more careful and use a hygrometer to keep a check on things.
Seeing this issue come up again quite controversially, I decided to check the historical values on my digital hygrometer. I don't know the exact time period involved, presumably from the last time I changed the battery, but my my well heated, well ventilated house has experienced an all time high of 73% and an all time low of 27%.

ToneControl

crunchman said:

ToneControl said:

crunchman said:

drofluf said:

CloudNine said:

crunchman said

Compared with the South, you are likely to be 5C colder outside in winter, may be more than that.   That 5C is enough to make a big difference to relative humidity.   If it's 30% in Scotland, then down here, it will be fine if you don't have your central heating high.

Again, all kinds of assumptions. I think best advice is to just get a hygrometer and stop guessing what your indoor humidity might be based on what you think it is outside, as they are completely different things.   

Sensible advice especially as they’re so cheap relative to a guitar. 

Also ignore what the met office say; I’ve measured 20% difference in humidity between inside and outside. 

It could be higher than that with cold weather outside and high central heating.

I've just found a graph for relative humidity in London.  In January and February this year, the lowest value was 64%.  A lot of the time it was over 80%.  If you have your central heating at a sensible level, you are not going to be too dry in South of England.  Buying a hygrometer is just a waste of money.

Strongly disagree

the RH (relative humidity) change when you heat air up (as it enters your house) is not a case of "subtract 20%", it's proportional to the temperature difference

when it is 0C outdoors, with 64% RH 
Then once inside and warmed up to 22C, that air will be at 16.2% RH
-5C gets it down to under 12% RH
-10C gets it to 8.7% RH indoors
See this calculator: https://www.lenntech.com/calculators/humidity/relative-humidity.htm ;

In reality, because you breathe and sweat, indoor air is usually more humid than that, but it's quite possible to get RH below 30% when it's 0C and 64% RH outside

When it's -15C you should be very very careful with your guitars, even if you can't afford £5 for a hygrometer
Go round putting wet towels on radiators, etc.

Scotland may be different, but in the South of England, it's rarely below 0C.  -10C is unheard of where I live, let alone -15C.  For London, where I live, the coldest month is January, with an average temperature of 5C.

Even with your central heating set at 22C, which I would find unbearably hot, a more normal relative humidity outside of 75% gives 26% inside according to that calculator, with the outside air at 5C.  Allowing for the moisture we breathe out, and drying clothes indoors etc, it's not going to drop below 30% for any extended period of time, if it does at all.

If you have your central heating at a more sensible temperature, then it's not an issue in the South of England.

Like I said above, in Scotland it's colder so things are different, so it may well be different for you, especially if you pay the extra to cook yourself with your central heating.

Anything under 40% is not good for your guitar, and will affect the tone and playability, even if permanent damage is less likely than below 30%

much of Southern England drops below 0C, we're not concerned about averages here, but extremes.
I worked in London for a year, and it was regularly well under 5C
I drove to Surrey once through -13C areas covered in snow. A few days at that temperature and central heating or a wood burning stove could be very harmful

btw for anyone living in apartments with air conditioning, you have a lot more to worry about. AC takes most of the water out of the air. Very few systems replace it.

drofluf

ToneControl said:

crunchman said:

drofluf said:

CloudNine said:

crunchman said

Compared with the South, you are likely to be 5C colder outside in winter, may be more than that.   That 5C is enough to make a big difference to relative humidity.   If it's 30% in Scotland, then down here, it will be fine if you don't have your central heating high.

Again, all kinds of assumptions. I think best advice is to just get a hygrometer and stop guessing what your indoor humidity might be based on what you think it is outside, as they are completely different things.   

Sensible advice especially as they’re so cheap relative to a guitar. 

Also ignore what the met office say; I’ve measured 20% difference in humidity between inside and outside. 

It could be higher than that with cold weather outside and high central heating.

I've just found a graph for relative humidity in London.  In January and February this year, the lowest value was 64%.  A lot of the time it was over 80%.  If you have your central heating at a sensible level, you are not going to be too dry in South of England.  Buying a hygrometer is just a waste of money.

Strongly disagree

the RH (relative humidity) change when you heat air up (as it enters your house) is not a case of "subtract 20%", it's proportional to the temperature difference

when it is 0C outdoors, with 64% RH 
Then once inside and warmed up to 22C, that air will be at 16.2% RH
-5C gets it down to under 12% RH
-10C gets it to 8.7% RH indoors
See this calculator: https://www.lenntech.com/calculators/humidity/relative-humidity.htm ;

In reality, because you breathe and sweat, indoor air is usually more humid than that, but it's quite possible to get RH below 30% when it's 0C and 64% RH outside

When it's -15C you should be very very careful with your guitars, even if you can't afford £5 for a hygrometer
Go round putting wet towels on radiators, etc.

Sorry if I was unclear; I’d once measured a 20% between outside, which was close to the figure on the met office forecast, and inside. 

Was just trying to say don’t use the  met office figure for outside and assume that it will be the same inside. 

ToneControl

drofluf said:

ToneControl said:

crunchman said:

drofluf said:

CloudNine said:

crunchman said

Compared with the South, you are likely to be 5C colder outside in winter, may be more than that.   That 5C is enough to make a big difference to relative humidity.   If it's 30% in Scotland, then down here, it will be fine if you don't have your central heating high.

Again, all kinds of assumptions. I think best advice is to just get a hygrometer and stop guessing what your indoor humidity might be based on what you think it is outside, as they are completely different things.   

Sensible advice especially as they’re so cheap relative to a guitar. 

Also ignore what the met office say; I’ve measured 20% difference in humidity between inside and outside. 

It could be higher than that with cold weather outside and high central heating.

I've just found a graph for relative humidity in London.  In January and February this year, the lowest value was 64%.  A lot of the time it was over 80%.  If you have your central heating at a sensible level, you are not going to be too dry in South of England.  Buying a hygrometer is just a waste of money.

Strongly disagree

the RH (relative humidity) change when you heat air up (as it enters your house) is not a case of "subtract 20%", it's proportional to the temperature difference

when it is 0C outdoors, with 64% RH 
Then once inside and warmed up to 22C, that air will be at 16.2% RH
-5C gets it down to under 12% RH
-10C gets it to 8.7% RH indoors
See this calculator: https://www.lenntech.com/calculators/humidity/relative-humidity.htm ;

In reality, because you breathe and sweat, indoor air is usually more humid than that, but it's quite possible to get RH below 30% when it's 0C and 64% RH outside

When it's -15C you should be very very careful with your guitars, even if you can't afford £5 for a hygrometer
Go round putting wet towels on radiators, etc.

Sorry if I was unclear; I’d once measured a 20% between outside, which was close to the figure on the met office forecast, and inside. 

Was just trying to say don’t use the  met office figure for outside and assume that it will be the same inside. 

agreed
I just didn't want people subtracting 20
in fact best to just buy the detectors really

CloudNine

There are always a number of people on these threads, who believe that measuring (hell, even thinking about) humidity is an attack on British values, and should not be condoned. There is literally nothing that can be said that will convince them that any corner of these isles has ever been infiltrated by even a puff of air, either too moist or too dry for a guitar, and mere facts will not diminish this unshakeble belief.

crunchman

ToneControl said:

much of Southern England drops below 0C, we're not concerned about averages here, but extremes.
I worked in London for a year, and it was regularly well under 5C
I drove to Surrey once through -13C areas covered in snow. A few days at that temperature and central heating or a wood burning stove could be very harmful

You aren't going to get extended periods at those temperatures.  -13C is going to be a once in 20 years type of event in Surrey, and it's only going to be at night for a few hours for one or two nights.

Like someone said above, inside your house there will be all the moisture you breathe out, and all the moisture from drying your washing, and from steam from the kettle and cooking etc.

When I looked up the figures above, the average relative humidity in the UK (London at least) in the coldest months is over 70%.   Even if it's 30% lower indoors, you are still over 40%.  Even if it's 40% lower, then you are  still over 30% for 99% of the time.

You also have to remember that a guitar isn't going to dry out instantly and snap in two if the relative humidity drops to 25% for a few hours.

There are places where this is an issue.  If you look at somewhere like Colorado in the US, it's about 40% relative humidity in January - that's more than 30% lower than here.  It will also be a lot colder, so the temperature difference from outside will be a lot bigger.  That is a totally different situation, but in the milder parts of the UK, it's not an issue.

Lewy

crunchman said:

drofluf said:

CloudNine said:

crunchman said

Compared with the South, you are likely to be 5C colder outside in winter, may be more than that.   That 5C is enough to make a big difference to relative humidity.   If it's 30% in Scotland, then down here, it will be fine if you don't have your central heating high.

Again, all kinds of assumptions. I think best advice is to just get a hygrometer and stop guessing what your indoor humidity might be based on what you think it is outside, as they are completely different things.   

Sensible advice especially as they’re so cheap relative to a guitar. 

Also ignore what the met office say; I’ve measured 20% difference in humidity between inside and outside. 

It could be higher than that with cold weather outside and high central heating.

I've just found a graph for relative humidity in London.  In January and February this year, the lowest value was 64%.  A lot of the time it was over 80%.  If you have your central heating at a sensible level, you are not going to be too dry in South of England.  Buying a hygrometer is just a waste of money.

So north of 60-65% on some guitars you’re into excess top belly and dull tone. Why would it be a waste of money to spend £10 on a hygrometer to prompt you to take a few simple measures to avoid that?

crunchman

Lewy said:

crunchman said:

drofluf said:

CloudNine said:

crunchman said

Compared with the South, you are likely to be 5C colder outside in winter, may be more than that.   That 5C is enough to make a big difference to relative humidity.   If it's 30% in Scotland, then down here, it will be fine if you don't have your central heating high.

Again, all kinds of assumptions. I think best advice is to just get a hygrometer and stop guessing what your indoor humidity might be based on what you think it is outside, as they are completely different things.   

Sensible advice especially as they’re so cheap relative to a guitar. 

Also ignore what the met office say; I’ve measured 20% difference in humidity between inside and outside. 

It could be higher than that with cold weather outside and high central heating.

I've just found a graph for relative humidity in London.  In January and February this year, the lowest value was 64%.  A lot of the time it was over 80%.  If you have your central heating at a sensible level, you are not going to be too dry in South of England.  Buying a hygrometer is just a waste of money.

So north of 60-65% on some guitars you’re into excess top belly and dull tone. Why would it be a waste of money to spend £10 on a hygrometer to prompt you to take a few simple measures to avoid that?

What good does a hygrometer do?  Even if the humidity is high on some occasions in summer, what are you actually going to do about it?  Are you going to pay to put air con in and run it?  It won't be practical to do anything about it.

Again, the humidity here isn't horrible in the summer.  It's not like we are in Colombo.

ToneControl

crunchman said:

ToneControl said:

much of Southern England drops below 0C, we're not concerned about averages here, but extremes.
I worked in London for a year, and it was regularly well under 5C
I drove to Surrey once through -13C areas covered in snow. A few days at that temperature and central heating or a wood burning stove could be very harmful

You aren't going to get extended periods at those temperatures.  -13C is going to be a once in 20 years type of event in Surrey, and it's only going to be at night for a few hours for one or two nights.

Like someone said above, inside your house there will be all the moisture you breathe out, and all the moisture from drying your washing, and from steam from the kettle and cooking etc.

When I looked up the figures above, the average relative humidity in the UK (London at least) in the coldest months is over 70%.   Even if it's 30% lower indoors, you are still over 40%.  Even if it's 40% lower, then you are  still over 30% for 99% of the time.

You also have to remember that a guitar isn't going to dry out instantly and snap in two if the relative humidity drops to 25% for a few hours.

There are places where this is an issue.  If you look at somewhere like Colorado in the US, it's about 40% relative humidity in January - that's more than 30% lower than here.  It will also be a lot colder, so the temperature difference from outside will be a lot bigger.  That is a totally different situation, but in the milder parts of the UK, it's not an issue.

so you haven't measured it yourself, and you are relying on average outdoor temperatures, not minimums, and have ignored the results of the calculator.

Google search page 1 confirms that coldest ever temperature in Surrey was -18C;  8 years ago http://www.frostedearth.co.uk/news/all-time-surrey-record-broken-with-minus-18.3c#:~:text=During%20the%20early%20hours%20of,this%20year%20across%20the%20UK.
And
-9C in 2018 https://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/hampshire-news/farnborough-revealed-coldest-place-country-14345247


I can tell you that my guitars go out of tune and the action changes when humidity goes up or down a bit, tone can be affected too. You can end up with fret ends protruding.  That's not my imagination, it's inconvenient, but not a major risk.

However, I use humidifiers to stop the humidity getting low. When it's cold and dry outside, it can get to 29% RH indoors in my house for days at a time, and I live in Cheshire, which has a mild climate.

With 30% RH, you are increasing the chances of cracks in the top, and other structural defects. Guitar makers are happy to explain this.

Certainly Colorado or Alaska would be worse, but that's not the point really.

malcolmkindness

crunchman said:

Lewy said:

crunchman said:

drofluf said:

CloudNine said:

crunchman said

Compared with the South, you are likely to be 5C colder outside in winter, may be more than that.   That 5C is enough to make a big difference to relative humidity.   If it's 30% in Scotland, then down here, it will be fine if you don't have your central heating high.

Again, all kinds of assumptions. I think best advice is to just get a hygrometer and stop guessing what your indoor humidity might be based on what you think it is outside, as they are completely different things.   

Sensible advice especially as they’re so cheap relative to a guitar. 

Also ignore what the met office say; I’ve measured 20% difference in humidity between inside and outside. 

It could be higher than that with cold weather outside and high central heating.

I've just found a graph for relative humidity in London.  In January and February this year, the lowest value was 64%.  A lot of the time it was over 80%.  If you have your central heating at a sensible level, you are not going to be too dry in South of England.  Buying a hygrometer is just a waste of money.

So north of 60-65% on some guitars you’re into excess top belly and dull tone. Why would it be a waste of money to spend £10 on a hygrometer to prompt you to take a few simple measures to avoid that?

What good does a hygrometer do?  Even if the humidity is high on some occasions in summer, what are you actually going to do about it?  Are you going to pay to put air con in and run it?  It won't be practical to do anything about it.

Again, the humidity here isn't horrible in the summer.  It's not like we are in Colombo.

A hygrometer tells you it's time to put your guitar in its case!

Slightly high humidity is a problem that can easily be solved with silica gel packs, it's low humidity that we have to worry about, please reference my previous post about the bridge flying off!

Lewy

crunchman said:

Lewy said:

crunchman said:

drofluf said:

CloudNine said:

crunchman said

Compared with the South, you are likely to be 5C colder outside in winter, may be more than that.   That 5C is enough to make a big difference to relative humidity.   If it's 30% in Scotland, then down here, it will be fine if you don't have your central heating high.

Again, all kinds of assumptions. I think best advice is to just get a hygrometer and stop guessing what your indoor humidity might be based on what you think it is outside, as they are completely different things.   

Sensible advice especially as they’re so cheap relative to a guitar. 

Also ignore what the met office say; I’ve measured 20% difference in humidity between inside and outside. 

It could be higher than that with cold weather outside and high central heating.

I've just found a graph for relative humidity in London.  In January and February this year, the lowest value was 64%.  A lot of the time it was over 80%.  If you have your central heating at a sensible level, you are not going to be too dry in South of England.  Buying a hygrometer is just a waste of money.

So north of 60-65% on some guitars you’re into excess top belly and dull tone. Why would it be a waste of money to spend £10 on a hygrometer to prompt you to take a few simple measures to avoid that?

What good does a hygrometer do?  Even if the humidity is high on some occasions in summer, what are you actually going to do about it?  Are you going to pay to put air con in and run it?  It won't be practical to do anything about it.

You can spend a few quid on D'addario Humidipacks and put them in the case. Perfect RH regardless of what's going on. Eminently practical and a paltry investment for a decent acoustic. And high humidity isn't necessarily just a factor for a few spikes over summer, it can be for most of the year, especially if you tend to only fire up the central heating when it gets cold out.

fishfingers

CloudNine said:

There are always a number of people on these threads, who believe that measuring (hell, even thinking about) humidity is an attack on British values, and should not be condoned. There is literally nothing that can be said that will convince them that any corner of these isles has ever been infiltrated by even a puff of air, either too moist or too dry for a guitar, and mere facts will not diminish this unshakeble belief.

Wis for that! I guess that a belief system such as you describe develops as a result of experience, and the vast majority of acoustic guitar owners won't have had any serious issues beyond the guitar maybe not sounding so good when the humidity is high. I know I chap with loads of very high end guitars, a lot out on stands all the time, and when I last spoke to him he'd never had any cracks in any of his instruments. I've had only one cracked top in 40+ years of guitar ownership, and I put that down to the guitar travelling over the sea in a container from NZ! Malcolm has described a pretty alarming issue caused by dryness. At the end of the day, if you own one or more cherished acoustic guitars it's a no-brainer to spend a few quid on knowing the humidity of your guitar environment

bobbatone

My house can get pretty humid in the summer, often reaching 70% in the room where my music stuff is. I only realised it was an issue when my 50s J-45 started to lose its mojo, and suffered a decrease volume, projection and tone. The solution was to use a humidifier pack (Planet waves) in the guitar case and to keep it in its case when not in use. I don’t leave my acoustics out unless I know the humidity and temperature are OK so a hygrometer is very useful! Thankfully my J-45 sounds fantastic again!

ESBlonde

Just out of interest I opened my Atkin case around noon today and the levels were 22c/77F and about 66% as far as my eyes can tell on the fitted hygrometer. The guitar lives in the case. I've printed a spreadsheet out so I can pencil in random readings to monitor what, when and where.

Lewy

ESBlonde said:

Just out of interest I opened my Atkin case around noon today and the levels were 22c/77F and about 66% as far as my eyes can tell on the fitted hygrometer. The guitar lives in the case. I've printed a spreadsheet out so I can pencil in random readings to monitor what, when and where.

About £45 gets you a D'Addario/Planet Waves Humiditrak which is a bluetooth hygrometer that lives in your guitar case and records what's going on in there via an app on your phone. See fluctuations in RH and Temp by month, day or hour. Bloody brilliant.

The thing with cases is you have to get them dry themselves - plush lining/padding can trap humidity and overhumidify your guitar without you even knowing it. The only way I've found of achieving that is to wait until your room is in the right humidity range and leave your case open in it for as long as you can.