Best acoustic pickup

Trude

Seriously - the Tonedexter seems able to make any shitty pickup sound great (except for magnetics). I have a mandolin with a ribbon pickup that has always sounded scratchy and thin. Could’ve gone down the rabbit hole of upgrading the pickup, but through the Tonedexter it sounds like I’m playing through a mic. Basically you plug a mic and your pickup into it and it analyses the difference, then applying the correction in reverse when you use the pickup from then onwards. 

Factor in my four K&K acoustics, mandolin, dobro and banjo and for me at least it makes a lot of sense to spend the money on the preamp rather than individual pickup upgrades.

p90fool

I agree @Trude , I've just gone back to undersaddle piezos direct to the jack, then sort it out with outboard. 
You don't need to spend a fortune these days either. 

I can use pretty much anything except magnetic pickups, as no matter how sophisticated they sound they always have the feel of a clean electric guitar to me. 

Stuckfast

lincolnblue said:

I just got a Taylor acoustic with their Expression System 2. Very impressed with it - much more realistic than normal piezos

I've heard these and thought they sounded great, but IME they have problems with noise. If there's anything around that can cause hum or buzz the Expression System will pick it up.

Colms2005

Check out Trance audio amulet. Pain in the ass to fit but unrivalled reproduction.

Santona1937

Colms2005 said:

Check out Trance audio amulet. Pain in the ass to fit but unrivalled reproduction.

  I have one in a J45.... you are right, there is nothing else like it, amped it sounds just the same as unamped, and very very minor EQ work needed, if any. A stunning piece of kit 

Lestratcaster

Funkfingers said:

Different technologies. Magnetic soundhole pickup with fancy noise-rejection circuitry versus undersaddle piezo transducer and microphone combination.

I used to have an Anthem SL system but was frustrated by its over-simplified mixing system. I would have been better served by the proper balance control of the full-on Anthem. That way, I could have selected 100% mic.

I use the Baggs Lyric.

Hmm I like the easy installation of the M1 Active, but the sound of the Anthem is nice, but fiddly to install? 

Is a Piezo a natural sound? Whereas magnet is that clicky metal thinner sound?

ICBM

Lestratcaster said:

Is a Piezo a natural sound? Whereas magnet is that clicky metal thinner sound?

Neither of them are natural, they're equally wrong but in different ways. The reason piezos have become more accepted for acoustics is because they sound less obviously like an electric guitar.

The problem with piezo undersaddle transducers is that they don't produce the correct phase signal - an acoustic guitar top generates the peak of its audio waveform when the string is moving the bridge the fastest, in the middle of its travel. A piezo pickup generates its peak when the string is producing the most (or least) pressure on the saddle, which is at the ends of its travel - this is also why it produces an exaggerated transient 'spikiness' which is very characteristic of USTs, because the pick attack produces very high saddle pressure.

The problem with a magnetic is that it picks up the wrong part of the string vibration - in the middle, rather than at the end where the sound is transferred to the body on an acoustic. That means that the harmonic mix is very different, and it also varies depending on where on the fingerboard you're playing. Soundhole pickups tend to be about at the midpoint of the string when you're playing at around the 12th fret, so they sound worst there. But in fact, a magnetic pickup does produce the peak signal when the string is moving fastest, so is correct in that respect.

A body sensor, even if it's a piezo type (like the K&K) produces the correct harmonic balance, phase and transient response, at least in theory - Taylor also did that with the first version of the Expression System, using body-mounted magnetic inertia sensors.

Mixing a magnetic and a piezo UST can also produce good results, since they each have some right and some wrong characteristics and they tend to cancel each other out to some extent.

But nothing ever sounds as natural as just sticking a mic in front of the guitar... even internal mics don't.

jaymenon

I realised a long time ago that in a live context no one (least of all myself) can tell the difference between an Adirondack or Engelman or Sitka spruce top and indeed rosewood or mahogany back and sides...

The objective (at least to my mind) is to get a loud and clear sound that approximates the sound of an acoustic guitar - and equally importantly is not prone to feedback.

In my experience I have found that the best sound I ever achieved was interestingly from this instrument:
https://i.imgur.com/ekZZulT.jpg

The only problem is that people don't realise it's an acoustic guitar and they ask you to play classic rock songs :-(

Then I installed an LR Baggs Anthem in this instrument which also sounds lovely. One bonus is the fact that I've managed to create a 'phantom power' system where 9v DC is supplied to the preamp via a TRS cable. No sound hole - doesn't feed back...

https://i.imgur.com/D5Kx3Er.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/VWKR5b4.jpg

IMO there comes a point after which it’s simpler and far more productive to concentrate on playing and getting the best possible sound from the guitar. Like electric guitarists who play the amp, not just the guitar - I think it's important even as an acoustic guitarist to play the whole system, not just the guitar. 

For finger-picking - piezo USTs sound just fine. 

Add a (internal or external) microphone or an Aura (or whatever outboard processor you like) and you can sound pretty decent even while strumming.

Just my 2c.

Rant over...

Lestratcaster

ICBM said:

Lestratcaster said:

Is a Piezo a natural sound? Whereas magnet is that clicky metal thinner sound?

Neither of them are natural, they're equally wrong but in different ways. The reason piezos have become more accepted for acoustics is because they sound less obviously like an electric guitar.

The problem with piezo undersaddle transducers is that they don't produce the correct phase signal - an acoustic guitar top generates the peak of its audio waveform when the string is moving the bridge the fastest, in the middle of its travel. A piezo pickup generates its peak when the string is producing the most (or least) pressure on the saddle, which is at the ends of its travel - this is also why it produces an exaggerated transient 'spikiness' which is very characteristic of USTs, because the pick attack produces very high saddle pressure.

The problem with a magnetic is that it picks up the wrong part of the string vibration - in the middle, rather than at the end where the sound is transferred to the body on an acoustic. That means that the harmonic mix is very different, and it also varies depending on where on the fingerboard you're playing. Soundhole pickups tend to be about at the midpoint of the string when you're playing at around the 12th fret, so they sound worst there. But in fact, a magnetic pickup does produce the peak signal when the string is moving fastest, so is correct in that respect.

A body sensor, even if it's a piezo type (like the K&K) produces the correct harmonic balance, phase and transient response, at least in theory - Taylor also did that with the first version of the Expression System, using body-mounted magnetic inertia sensors.

Mixing a magnetic and a piezo UST can also produce good results, since they each have some right and some wrong characteristics and they tend to cancel each other out to some extent.

But nothing ever sounds as natural as just sticking a mic in front of the guitar... even internal mics don't.

Hmm interesting, of course nothing will sound as good as an actual mic in front of the soundhole, I think what I'm deciding is whether to spend the money on an LR Baggs pickup or a fancy mic like a Neumann or AKG etc. I would like the flexibility to move the pickup between guitars so I fancy using a particular one on that day I can do it quickly and easily.

The Anthem one looks like it is installed inside the guitar whereas the M1 can be screwed over the soundhole. If I'm correct does the Anthem (or perhaps both) have a blend control thing so you use the mic effect?

jaymenon

The Anthem has a UST (the Element) and an under bridge microphone (the latter being similar to the Lyric).

The Lyric (under-bridge mic on its own) - I didn't like at all.

With the Anthem - the microphone handles only eye higher frequency sounds.

Off the top of my head, everything below 250Hz is handled by the Element UST.

The net result is rather nice sounding, even for someone as OCD as me.

Stuckfast

ICBM said:

But nothing ever sounds as natural as just sticking a mic in front of the guitar... even internal mics don't.

I often think that putting a mic on an acoustic guitar doesn't sound very natural either, especially when it's shoved right up close as it usually is in live sound situations.

Given that the whole idea of "acoustic guitar only louder" isn't very natural anyway I tend to think you might as well settle for something that sounds good on its own terms, and treat the business of gigging with an acoustic as being just different from recording or playing in your living room.

I'm not sure I agree with those who say that piezo pickups are all right for fingerstyle, though. I think they usually sound horrible regardless.

ICBM

Stuckfast said:

I often think that putting a mic on an acoustic guitar doesn't sound very natural either, especially when it's shoved right up close as it usually is in live sound situations. 

Given that the whole idea of "acoustic guitar only louder" isn't very natural anyway I tend to think you might as well settle for something that sounds good on its own terms, and treat the business of gigging with an acoustic as being just different from recording or playing in your living room.

I'm not sure I agree with those who say that piezo pickups are all right for fingerstyle, though. I think they usually sound horrible regardless.

That’s all true, but *any* mic on the outside still sounds far more natural than any pickup system to me - or even an internal mic (which I don’t like at all, and are very feedback-prone).

I completely agree that with a pickup, it’s best just to get a good sound and not worry about whether it’s accurate or not - so I’ve gone back to magnetics.

Piezo USTs are still useful as a source for full guitar/mic modelling like the Fishman Aura, but not for actual amplified signal. Although they are much better if mixed with a magnetic, like jaymenon’s Tele - I had the older thinline version which was very good too.

jaymenon

Here’s my Anthem on the guitar without the soundhole



The guitar:
https://i.imgur.com/D5Kx3Er.jpg