Bog Oak for Acoustic guitars - Is it any good?

GTC

DavidR said:

Can anyone tell us about the specific characteristics of bog oak. I get it's old wood that's been submerged but how is it good? Also that it looks very very nice.

 Not being negative but just want to know. How e.g. is it better tonally than heat treated/torrefied spruce? Woodier? Brighter? different? And, if so, in what way.

It is heavier and denser than most other back and sides woods - which give it excellent properties for tonal reflection inside guitar bodies. It works particularly well with a sinker redwood top on my Avalon S7 OAK. I've never heard or played a similar sinker redwood topped instrument with, say, rosewood back and sides - but with these properties I would expect it to give a louder, more complex tone. All I can say for sure is that my Avalon S7 is superb. I've never come across another guitar like it and it seems to get better each time I pick it up.

Gassage

Had a Gibson Les Paul made from it- just bog standard tones really...

JCA2550

A good friend of mine had a LPDC shaped, through-neck solid body from Chris Larkin in the early 80s. The neck and body were made up from laminated maple, pear and bog oak, it played well, sounded adequate and weighed around 13lbs. He adored it, I thought it was a pig.

GTC

What makes a good body wood for a solid-body electric is very different to what makes a good back and sides wood for an acoustic

malcolmkindness

DavidR said:

Can anyone tell us about the specific characteristics of bog oak. I get it's old wood that's been submerged but how is it good? Also that it looks very very nice.

 Not being negative but just want to know. How e.g. is it better tonally than heat treated/torrefied spruce? Woodier? Brighter? different? And, if so, in what way.

I have only played one bog oak/sinker redwood guitar by a well respected builder, but I thought it was very dull sounding. The cocobolo/spruce one I compared it to was much better and a lot cheaper. Maybe it was just a bad example, but it didn't impress me at all.

GTC

malcolmkindness said:

DavidR said:

Can anyone tell us about the specific characteristics of bog oak. I get it's old wood that's been submerged but how is it good? Also that it looks very very nice.

 Not being negative but just want to know. How e.g. is it better tonally than heat treated/torrefied spruce? Woodier? Brighter? different? And, if so, in what way.

I have only played one bog oak/sinker redwood guitar by a well respected builder, but I thought it was very dull sounding. The cocobolo/spruce one I compared it to was much better and a lot cheaper. Maybe it was just a bad example, but it didn't impress me at all.

I don't know if the one you played was new - but it is worth bearing in mind that sinker redwoood tops are notorious for taking ages to break in compared to spruce and cedar. But - when they do - I would say combine the mellowness and deepness of mahogany with the sparkle of spruce - it is rather wonderful and different.

My Avalon sounded pretty good from the outset - but it has gradually been getting even better as it has opened up over the past 18 months

malcolmkindness

GTC said:

malcolmkindness said:

DavidR said:

Can anyone tell us about the specific characteristics of bog oak. I get it's old wood that's been submerged but how is it good? Also that it looks very very nice.

 Not being negative but just want to know. How e.g. is it better tonally than heat treated/torrefied spruce? Woodier? Brighter? different? And, if so, in what way.

I have only played one bog oak/sinker redwood guitar by a well respected builder, but I thought it was very dull sounding. The cocobolo/spruce one I compared it to was much better and a lot cheaper. Maybe it was just a bad example, but it didn't impress me at all.

I don't know if the one you played was new - but it is worth bearing in mind that sinker redwoood tops are notorious for taking ages to break in compared to spruce and cedar. But - when they do - I would say combine the mellowness and deepness of mahogany with the sparkle of spruce - it is rather wonderful and different.

My Avalon sounded pretty good from the outset - but it has gradually been getting even better as it has opened up over the past 18 months

Yes, it was new and it might have been the sinker redwood top, but I still found it dull and uninspiring.

GRBaldwin

GTC said:

malcolmkindness said:

DavidR said:

Can anyone tell us about the specific characteristics of bog oak. I get it's old wood that's been submerged but how is it good? Also that it looks very very nice.

 Not being negative but just want to know. How e.g. is it better tonally than heat treated/torrefied spruce? Woodier? Brighter? different? And, if so, in what way.

I have only played one bog oak/sinker redwood guitar by a well respected builder, but I thought it was very dull sounding. The cocobolo/spruce one I compared it to was much better and a lot cheaper. Maybe it was just a bad example, but it didn't impress me at all.

I don't know if the one you played was new - but it is worth bearing in mind that sinker redwoood tops are notorious for taking ages to break in compared to spruce and cedar. But - when they do - I would say combine the mellowness and deepness of mahogany with the sparkle of spruce - it is rather wonderful and different.

My Avalon sounded pretty good from the outset - but it has gradually been getting even better as it has opened up over the past 18 months

@GTC I 100% agree with you here. I have a Sinker Redwood top'd Bog Oak B&S Avalon Auditorium custom guitar and had exactly the same thoughts on the Sinker.

I got it home the first day after waiting a good 10-12 weeks for it to be made, salivating with each more than appreciated update from Steve Mcilwrath along the way. May I add that it was over Christmas, so it would normally be a quicker turnaround. Anyway, I digress. I got it home and was not deflated, but disappointed is more the word. It sounded good, but a little like as if someone was squeezing it and it couldn't sing at full potential. I did read that sinker takes a while to open up, so I made it my goal to play it more than any of my other guitars and at just less than a year old now it sounds awesome!

As I mentioned above, with this combo, the guitar sounds to me a little Mahogany esque but with some super sparkly top end presence. I don't know whether the Bog Oak is providing that, but either way it's lovely. It has a really nice vintage tone to it, but one that has real presence and focus to it. The lows aren't crazy, but they're deep enough for me and I think it would work really well as a recording guitar. A bit like Mahogany in that respect.

Mine is less than a year old as I've mentioned, so, if what @GTC says is right with his and without trying to sound cheesy, It's got a little bit more of it's voice to show and I'm looking forward to hearing it.

My two penneth worth on Bog Oak for you there, haha.

DavidR

Those are very interesting replies.

GTC

I've mainly been playing nylon-strung guitars over the past 6 months so my Avalon A7 Sinker Redwood / Bog Oak may be taking longer than usual to open up as it only gets occasional use

ToneControl

GRBaldwin said:

GTC said:

malcolmkindness said:

DavidR said:

Can anyone tell us about the specific characteristics of bog oak. I get it's old wood that's been submerged but how is it good? Also that it looks very very nice.

 Not being negative but just want to know. How e.g. is it better tonally than heat treated/torrefied spruce? Woodier? Brighter? different? And, if so, in what way.

I have only played one bog oak/sinker redwood guitar by a well respected builder, but I thought it was very dull sounding. The cocobolo/spruce one I compared it to was much better and a lot cheaper. Maybe it was just a bad example, but it didn't impress me at all.

I don't know if the one you played was new - but it is worth bearing in mind that sinker redwoood tops are notorious for taking ages to break in compared to spruce and cedar. But - when they do - I would say combine the mellowness and deepness of mahogany with the sparkle of spruce - it is rather wonderful and different.

My Avalon sounded pretty good from the outset - but it has gradually been getting even better as it has opened up over the past 18 months

@GTC I 100% agree with you here. I have a Sinker Redwood top'd Bog Oak B&S Avalon Auditorium custom guitar and had exactly the same thoughts on the Sinker.

I got it home the first day after waiting a good 10-12 weeks for it to be made, salivating with each more than appreciated update from Steve Mcilwrath along the way. May I add that it was over Christmas, so it would normally be a quicker turnaround. Anyway, I digress. I got it home and was not deflated, but disappointed is more the word. It sounded good, but a little like as if someone was squeezing it and it couldn't sing at full potential. I did read that sinker takes a while to open up, so I made it my goal to play it more than any of my other guitars and at just less than a year old now it sounds awesome!

As I mentioned above, with this combo, the guitar sounds to me a little Mahogany esque but with some super sparkly top end presence. I don't know whether the Bog Oak is providing that, but either way it's lovely. It has a really nice vintage tone to it, but one that has real presence and focus to it. The lows aren't crazy, but they're deep enough for me and I think it would work really well as a recording guitar. A bit like Mahogany in that respect.

Mine is less than a year old as I've mentioned, so, if what @GTC says is right with his and without trying to sound cheesy, It's got a little bit more of it's voice to show and I'm looking forward to hearing it.

My two penneth worth on Bog Oak for you there, haha.

IMHO
If you are buying new top-notch acoustics, you need a ToneRite or PrimeVibe to break them in.
It made a massive and fast difference to my new sinker redwood guitar, and almost every other guitar I have used it on

thomasross20

Is this wood heavier than ebony? 

How has it aged, for those that have one..? The bass on YouTube vids sounds thunky in a good way, I think. 

earwighoney

thomasross20 said:

Is this wood heavier than ebony? 

How has it aged, for those that have one..? The bass on YouTube vids sounds thunky in a good way, I think. 

910 kg/m3 so a bit more than Indian Rosewood.  This is from the seller Timberline if it's of any relevance.

Tannin

^ Interesting! As mentioned in the other thread, I've found two or three sources all saying that the density is about the same as standard oak.  910kg/m3 is abut 25% heavier than the 675kg/m3 cited as normal for European Oak.

thomasross20

I wonder how bog oak compares to silver oak, in terms of tone.

Because the silver oak guitar I briefly had.... had something going on with the sound. 
Sounded fantastic but it really grated on my ears to the point that it flared up my tinnitus to painful and worrying levels. 
So I ought to be careful with bog oak. 

Regarding this build I keep going on about...... perhaps I should stick to the more sapele-type sound and experiment both with different body characteristics (OO 12-fret, perhaps) and different top woods. Lutz for white spruce complexity coupled with adirondack's headroom (apparently - I haven't tried it!) or moon spruce which has something very cool going on with it (though moon spruce is slightly more fundamental and I wouldn't want any treble shimmer being affected by that). I also never realised that "European spruce" is not the same as engelmann.... or at least, I don't think it is.......

All the above is just one aspect. I was checking out a luthier that uses a mixture of both standard bracing + fanned bracing, which he though improved the tone. Bracing... scalloped, tapered, what to do (as opposed to top thickness carving)... No back bracing, no kerfing... shifting of the X-brace (shifting it close to sound hole does seem to give things more air and complexity but I feel you lose the bass response a bit..... you don't get something for nothing is what I always say - key point being Larrivee's "scalloped" [actually tapered...] bracing which some love for the extra bass but what those guitars gain in the bass department, they lose in the mids-trebles shimmer department!).

And then I was reading that blackwood necks (IIRC) are apparently a nice upgrade to standard mahogany and as @Tannin was saying, multi-layer is actually better for stability. The materials for the bridge, the nut & saddle (tusq I think I prefer over bone). To get an arm bevel or not... the effect of a cutaway on EQ (I've read it affects the trebles a tad). The neck shape! I don't like any V, too deep a C is hard for barre work... the depth of the body! The material for the bracing (adi seems popular for lightness/strength)

Man, I love acoustic guitar!! 

Tannin

"Silver Oak" is nothing, repeat nothing to do with oak, let alone bog oak. "Silver Oak" is actually Silky Oak, aka Grevillea robusta, a very beautiful medium-size tree from New South Wales and the largest of all grevilieas. Silky Oak is structurally close to mahogany - near enough the same weight and hardness, not so strong - and visually similar to London Plane or "lacewood" - i.e., spectacularly dappled and just this side of orgasmic.  

Stop there @thomasross20, my brain is starting to hurt.

thomasross20

Haha I get excited!
Good to know the above thanks!

Tannin

PS: European Spruce and Englemann Spruce are different species. One grows all over Europe (but sadly, not in the UK), the other is from Canada. The two of them are regarded as the most responsive of the spruces (great for fingerstyle) but also the least able to cope with being overdriven (not great for hard strumming).  

European Spruce is a particularly beautiful tree. I wanted my British guitar to be all-British but after meeting European Spruces in Croatia (and also Austria, Slovenia, Switzerland) I was more than happy to use it as a top. (Maybe Englemann Spruce is equally lovely in the flesh. I would not know.)  

thomasross20

As ever, very knowledgeable!!
The strumming thing is important to me as I do strum, which is why I've stayed away from engelmann to date.

A side note here as I was looking at wood database over lunch ..

 Honduran & Cuban hog have pretty much the same weight & hardness. But this new sipo has slightly higher numbers than both, edging toward sapele. Keen to hear that wood now : D