Pedal preamps, KK Pure mini etc

Longtallronnie

I have a Faith Saturn that I gig straight into a PA and just wondering what I could do to improve the sound?

Got a big birthday coming up so there’s potential for new toys, been eyeing up a KK pure mini for a while but the LR Baggs Align range looks pretty cool too. 

I’m just not sure how this stuff interacts with one another. I’m assuming in an ideal world, the KK would be paired with a preamp pedal but I doubt I can stretch to both. So would I be better off with the KK direct to PA or the Faith’s on board Shadow preamp into a second (albeit higher quality) preamp such as the LR Baggs?

Also open to other suggestions. It’s not that I’m particularly unhappy with the sound but anything that moved further to a more natural non-piezo sound is kinda what I’m looking for. 

Vague enough?!

Cirrus

Well, one of the things I like about the K&K is that it sounds pretty good into most things. A PA has a line amp and EQ, usually, which is basically what a preamp pedal is giving you albeit in a more specialised format.

On the other hand, my personal feeling is that if an all-in-one circuit with a preamp and eq built in which you're not happy with isn't really going to be better if you put that sound into yet another preamp & EQ, no matter how much better quality it is - that's like slapping a bandaid on, if that makes sense.


Beyond that, it's just a practical question of deciding what controls you want and where while you perform.

Longtallronnie

That’s kinda what I was thinking re onboard preamp into a preamp pedal - piezos and onboard preamps is all I’ve ever used though the KK is a whole new area for me. 

I use a pretty basic PA, nothing flash, I wonder if it would do the KK justice if that makes sense? 

My thoughts being that my current onboard preamp is designed to process an acoustic guitar signal whereas my mixer isn’t? 

Sorry if I’m speaking bollocks! Just wondering if upgrading one part will just highlight inadequacies further down the chain. 

Longtallronnie

As far as where the controls are, I try to leave them be once I’ve set up so it wouldn’t be an issue really. When I’m gigging, the mixer is pretty close by as would any pedal be. 

Cirrus

Longtallronnie said:

Just wondering if upgrading one part will just highlight inadequacies further down the chain. 

My experience tends to be the converse - upgrading something often highlights the inadequacies further up the chain, if that makes sense

Longtallronnie

I’m well aware of my own inadequacies!

Wazmeister

Ive just been down this route...

I settled on a K&K Pure Mini, which I then fitted myself into my (cheap) Guild DS240.

I also bought a Fishman Loudbox Mini Amp, amd built an acoustic pedalboard. The Pre amp i chose in the end was a Grace Design Bix; not cheap but sounds lovely. 

All this will go into our band/church PA.

The Align Session is the pedal to get if you fancy an align; it is subtle but really seems to lift and ‘throw’ the sound.

I cant recommend the K&K highly enough.

Heres my unwired board.

TheBigDipper

I've got K&Ks on the two guitars I have with a fitted pickup. They aren't expensive. I own one K&K XLR Preamp that can use batteries or phantom power from the desk. It's small enough, but not really a foot pedal. K&Ks do need to plug into the right impedance (1MOhm) to sound their best. By having the preamp I've got the right impedance, some basic level/tone control and I can deliver the same sort of signal level to the desk as an active pickup/preamp guitar. It sounds decent, non-quacky and works reliably. At open mics I've usually got the best natural sound. Every extra guitar I might now buy or add a pickup to will not need me to buy the whole caboodle - just the K&K for the guitar. I've already got the preamp. 

Then - like any other pickup/preamp, no matter how expensive - you're at the mercy of the person running the desk. At a proper gig, no worries. At an open mic, it's Thunderbirds half hour...  

EDIT: Sorry, I'm of a certain age. The intro to the TV programme Thunderbirds includes the tannoy announcement that "anything can happen in the next half hour" over the top of some very stirring music that any Brit my age would recognise. :-) 

JCA2550

@TheBigDipper actually,  it was Stingray.

K&K pure mini is the mut's nuts. I had one installed with the internal preamp inside the sound hole on my Atkin when Alister was building it. He'd never seen the K&K pick  ups before but was impressed with the sound, although the  sound hole preamp was a bugger to fit and the eq controls are virtually impossible to use on the fly.

Since then, I've used it constantly, open mics, small folk clubs, large venues, Festival stages, both DI'd or into a Fishman Loudbox Mini and have never had anything but compliments on the great natural sound quality. Only complaint from sound guys has been that there's too much level going to the desk and the volume on the preamp needs to be set very low.

TheBigDipper

JCA2550 said:

@TheBigDipper actually,  it was Stingray.

K&K pure mini is the mut's nuts. I had one installed with the internal preamp inside the sound hole on my Atkin when Alister was building it. He'd never seen the K&K pick  ups before but was impressed with the sound.

Since then, I've used it constantly, open mics, small folk clubs, large venues, Festival stages, both DI'd or into a Fishman Loudbox Mini and have never had anything but compliments on the great natural sound quality. Only complaint from sound guys has been that there's too much level going to the desk and the volume on the preamp needs to be set very low.

I said I was of a certain age! 

mgaw

I would take out the shadow replace it with K&K and get a decent preamp tbh ,  Orchid Electronics make a very good sounding pre amp for not much money and are based i think in Exeter.

The pre installed pickup is it undersaddle?

JCA2550

mgaw said:

I would take out the shadow replace it with K&K and get a decent preamp tbh ,  Orchid Electronics make a very good sounding pre amp for not much money and are based i think in Exeter.

The pre installed pickup is it undersaddle?

No, it's not an undersaddle installation, that is not in the saddle slot piezo style. There are 3 little contact sensors/pickups which are super glued to the underside of the bridge plate. There are some interesting YouTube videos of folks self-installing the K&K pure mini, I think it used to be called the "pure western" or something?

ICBM

I’m not a fan of built-in electronics, and especially not Shadow, but if you've got the preamp box in the guitar it makes no sense to not use it. A K&K would be better fitted to a plain acoustic guitar without it.

You might be surprised how much difference an outboard modelling preamp makes - not just a better EQ - it can use the signal from the guitar and convert it into something much more natural-sounding by modelling a mic’ed guitar.

The Zoom AC-3 and Boss AD-8 (discontinued now) are very good.

Longtallronnie

@ICBM do you think the K&K + stock Shadow preamp would be better than than the stock under saddle piezo + stock Shadow preamp?

I’m thinking if I went with the K&K, I could install it whilst keeping the stock electrics intact with two output jacks. Or I could do some jiggery pokery and run the K&K via the Shadow preamp.  I’m not worried about extra holes as I’ve already fitted a separate strap pin so I’d just convert that. 

Could potentially have the option of stock electrics, K&K direct or K&K plus Shadow. 

ICBM

Longtallronnie said:

@ICBM do you think the K&K + stock Shadow preamp would be better than than the stock under saddle piezo + stock Shadow preamp?

Not sure - I’ve never tried that combination. Probably worth trying if you are going to fit a K&K - if it sounds good and you don’t mind more holes you could fit a switch to select which pickup goes through the preamp.

Longtallronnie

ICBM said:

Longtallronnie said:

@ICBM do you think the K&K + stock Shadow preamp would be better than than the stock under saddle piezo + stock Shadow preamp?

Not sure - I’ve never tried that combination. Probably worth trying if you are going to fit a K&K - if it sounds good and you don’t mind more holes you could fit a switch to select which pickup goes through the preamp.

Aye that’s what I was thinking. At least as a starting point then decide if I need a separate preamp - would potentially have several bases covered for breakdowns etc too. 

Wazmeister

JCA2550 said:

mgaw said:

I would take out the shadow replace it with K&K and get a decent preamp tbh ,  Orchid Electronics make a very good sounding pre amp for not much money and are based i think in Exeter.

The pre installed pickup is it undersaddle?

No, it's not an undersaddle installation, that is not in the saddle slot piezo style. There are 3 little contact sensors/pickups which are super glued to the underside of the bridge plate. There are some interesting YouTube videos of folks self-installing the K&K pure mini, I think it used to be called the "pure western" or something?

The Pure Western and Pure Mini are the same thing.

Scrub the Shadow; you wont need it with the K&K installed. I fitted mine myself, and this video was the best to follow, imho...

Wazmeister

https://youtu.be/_ezwditQznI

ICBM

Wazmeister said:

Scrub the Shadow; you wont need it with the K&K installed.

I would definitely try it if you’re going to fit a K&K anyway - it might sound good, I don’t really know! But I have connected cheap soundhole pickups to old preamps before when failed UST replacement was uneconomical (non-standard sizes or types), with surprisingly good results.

I’m not a fan of Shadow electrics normally at all, they sound hideous with USTs in my opinion - but might be good with something completely different.

Bidley

I use a K&K Pure Mini/Western with a Helix. If you set it up with a preamp, some EQ and a nice IR it sounds amazing.

Cirrus

The great thing with the helix is that you can play with the input impedance too if you want to see what effect that has on the signal. I've used the same combo in the past and been happy with it.