Unable to adjust intonation

Jazzthat

I have run out of adjustability on the bridge . Strangely all of the strings are on sharp side on 12th fret
Can you advise what are my options here ?

WezV

I would double check scale length measurements before doing anything else.

Have you had it intonating properly before?

Jazzthat

WezV said:

I would double check scale length measurements before doing anything else.

Have you had it intonating properly before?

That's the thing , I don't know . I assumed it was ok and done all the work and come to a bad stop .
No I haven't checked scale length yet. 

stickyfiddle

You can potentially flip the saddles to get another mm or so if that might be enough. 

But I’d check scale length vs 12th fret and try another set of strings as well

ICBM

Is that the old Hondo? If so the neck joint has probably collapsed slightly - I had a Maya 335 copy recently that was even worse. A lot of these old Japanese plywood top guitars don’t have a proper end stop in the neck pocket, they rely on the bolts, and over time the holes get elongated. You need to work out the right position, and glue and pin a piece of wood to the pocket floor to do the job properly.

On the Maya, even with the neck in the right place the bridge still needed moving about 3mm back - luckily the bridge posts were ABR-1 type, so easier to plug the holes and redrill than those posts on yours.

Jazzthat

ICBM said:

Is that the old Hondo? If so the neck joint has probably collapsed slightly - I had a Maya 335 copy recently that was even worse. A lot of these old Japanese plywood top guitars don’t have a proper end stop in the neck pocket, they rely on the bolts, and over time the holes get elongated. You need to work out the right position, and glue and pin a piece of wood to the pocket floor to do the job properly.

On the Maya, even with the neck in the right place the bridge still needed moving about 3mm back - luckily the bridge posts were ABR-1 type, so easier to plug the holes and redrill than those posts on yours.

So it seems , the scale for this model is supposed to be 24.74" .
I have just measured from edge of nut to roughly middle of the bridge and it is 627mm or 24.685" .
It doesn't look that bad , does it ?

Jazzthat

Yes it's that Hondo I am doing up

WezV

That's not a massive difference, 1.5mm, so should be within the adjustment of the bridge.

To be sure, measure nut to  centre of 12th fret and double it. 

 The high e saddle should sit pretty close to that measurement, maybe 1.5mm behind it.  3mm+ for the low E.  That's how I set them with the saddles centered.  

If you can't get near that, the bridge will need to be moved 

SteveRobinson

stickyfiddle said:

You can potentially flip the saddles to get another mm or so if that might be enough.

Or flip the whole bridge

Jazzthat

SteveRobinson said:

stickyfiddle said:

You can potentially flip the saddles to get another mm or so if that might be enough.

Or flip the whole bridge

I don't think I can do that , as there are already machined  grooves in the saddles for each string .

tone1

If you just flip a saddle round, I found a small block of wood handy for short, sharp tap for removal….

Jazzthat

WezV said:

That's not a massive difference, 1.5mm, so should be within the adjustment of the bridge.

To be sure, measure nut to  centre of 12th fret and double it. 

 The high e saddle should sit pretty close to that measurement, maybe 1.5mm behind it.  3mm+ for the low E.  That's how I set them with the saddles centered.  

If you can't get near that, the bridge will need to be moved 

Thanks @WezV for explaining this . I have never dealt with anything like this before , so everything is new to me .

I have taken measurements from nut to 12th and then double it and measure again to the middle of saddle travel .

From nut to 12th 

High E = 315mm
Low E = 315mm

From 12th to centre of bridge 

High E = 312mm
Low E = 313mm

Should the distance from nut to 12th and from 12th to bridge centre be identical ?
If so , then the scale will be at 630mm ( 24.8") .
I'll wait for you guys to confirm all this and I likely would going with @ICBM ; advise and drilling new positions on the neck heel and putting some wood support in the pocket .

viz

What’s the distance to the 12th fret? 

Jazzthat

I might try flipping all saddles around . 
How easy is it to so that on that particular bridge ? 
It's a graphtech one PS-8863-G0 

Jazzthat

viz said:

What’s the distance to the 12th fret? 

I have posted above all measurements . To 12th fret both high and lowE is 315mm (12.4")

WezV

Is that from fretboard side of nut to centre of 12 fret.   If so, the bridge is out of place.

Doubling this distance gives you the mathematically correct scale length.   The actually string length needs to be a little longer to intonate properly.  It never needs to be shorter than the mathematical scale length 

If your scale length is 630mm then the high e would likely sit between 630-631.5mm, the low E would sit between 633-635mm

Jazzthat

WezV said:

Is that from fretboard side of nut to centre of 12 fret.   If so, the bridge is out of place.

Doubling this distance gives you the mathematically correct scale length.   The actually string length needs to be a little longer to intonate properly.  It never needs to be shorter than the mathematical scale length 

If your scale length is 630mm then the high e would likely sit between 630-631.5mm, the low E would sit between 633-635mm

Yes it is taken from fretboard side . 

I have measured the thickness of a saddle , which is 3mm .
Theoretically flipping them round would give me enough adjustment to make  intonation right .

SteveRobinson

Jazzthat said:

I might try flipping all saddles around . 
How easy is it to so that on that particular bridge ? 
It's a graphtech one PS-8863-G0 

I think that each saddle is secured with a tiny circlip behind the screw head. They're tricky to remove, I use a screwdriver to prise them off and press them back on.

Jazzthat

SteveRobinson said:

Jazzthat said:

I might try flipping all saddles around . 
How easy is it to so that on that particular bridge ? 
It's a graphtech one PS-8863-G0 

I think that each saddle is secured with a tiny circlip behind the screw head. They're tricky to remove, I use a screwdriver to prise them off and press them back on.

Yeah , you right . I looked down in there and saw some sort of circlip .
I might look on YT to make it easier for myself to do that

WezV

I don't think it will be enough going off your measurements, but worth a try.

You have 628 mm from nut to centre of low E as it is.. your going to be a few mm short even after flipping

Jazzthat

WezV said:

I don't think it will be enough going off your measurements, but worth a try.

You have 628 mm from nut to centre of low E as it is.. your going to be a few mm short even after flipping

Fair conclusion . I might skip the saddle option and move to shifting neck holes ...