Manufacturers avoid describing woods as "laminated"

Christeafur

There are some high end makers who use laminated woods on their back and sides. the purpose being that it stiffens them I think. 

Greenfield guitars go for over 10k!!!

Tannin

Just so Christeafur, but (as you know) they are not doing it as a way of employing cheap or low-quality timbers. Let's take a step back:

(1) Everybody knows that the top produces most of the sound, and the top timber is critically important. A commonly cited figure (just to put a number on it) is 70%. Some say even more. 

(2) This does not mean that the back and sides timber is unimportant. The importance of back and sides timber is easily demonstrated by playing pairs of guitars with identical top timber and construction but different back and sides timbers. For example, compare a rosewood B&S guitar with an otherwise similar mahogany one. Or Rock (American) Maple with Queensland Maple. Very different sounds. 

(3) Sides, however, are not the same as backs. We talk about "back and sides" but of those two it is the back which does all the work: the sides simply serve to close the box and keep the other components the right distance apart. There is no particular reason to make sides from the same timber as the back other than convention and aesthetics. You could make sides out of pretty much any reasonably strong material without much change in the sound. 

(4) There is a school of thought to the effect that very dense and rigid sides help the top and back function more effectively. Builders subscribing to this use laminations (because solid wood can only be bent up to a certain thickness) and/or add extra weight blocks to the sides. The basic idea is to hold the sides still and have all the vibration expressed via the top and back. The builders I know about who do these things are very well regarded, which I think tells us something. Notice that we are now a very long way away from cheap mass-produced guitars which use laminated materials because that's a cheap way to get consistent (albeit not terribly good) results.

DavidR

rogd said:

What then is the essential difference between a laminate top and a double top?

Double tops are 3 layers with a central layer of a strengthening material - typically nomex, a kevlar polymer. (So if you're worried about being shot whilst performing, they're the ones for you!) ((joke)). Double tops often like to mix and match their woods to make tonal changes. Its a classical guitar thing for the most part and a boutique one for acoustics although Eastman will sell you one - the DT30 - which, like nearly all double tops, does not come cheap. Take a look at the classicals of Greg Smallman, an Australian luthier, and an early adapter of double tops using carbon fibre.

Laminates are bits of wood made out of layers of thinner wood. The grain is layed crossways to provide 2 dimensional strength.

Both techniques can provide thinner stronger tops with greater vibrating potential. Both are OK options. Although laminates can mean cheap, they are also often just different and fine. 1970's Yamaha FG got a good rep from using laminate tops in fact. If the build quality overall is good it isn't necessarily a problem - as has been said.

As regards OP, I've seen the word 'layered' used to seemingly avoid the word laminated. Unnecessary, and buys into the narrative that laminated = second rate.

In fact, if you're buying into the 'better sound from thinner, higher strength-to-weight ratio top' theory for acoustics, laminates are arguably the better way to go. Since cheaper+++. Personal view. And these days makers know not to use laminates so thin they warp over time.

I've never owned a double top. To me the cost has never seemed worth the benefit and I have always thought money better spent exploring other avenues of acoustic guitar quality.

rogd

Thanks David.

bertie

Lewy said:

earwighoney said:

Jalapeno said:

There's a common mis-conception that laminate = plywood, it isn't.  Plywood is indeed laminated in its construction, but all-spruce, walnut, mahogany or rosewood laminates are definitely NOT plywood.

Point about ageing is well made, a laminate will not improve or decay over time (unless the glue fails of course).

If my memory serves me right you are a Gypsy Jazz guitar enthusiast right?

Laminate back and sides crop up on high end instruments Django style guitars not as a cost cutting feature but for the tonality of the instrument.

I love the sound and style of those kind of guitars/Gypsy Jazz.

I believe there are also a number of high end luthiers that use laminate sides. Something to do with transferring more energy to the back to get that contributing to the tone I think? Don’t quote me on that being the reason, but they definitely do it. 

ask a certain Mr J Gomm and a certain Mr G Lowden   (called a Hybrid top I believe)

(apologies if its already been mentioned,  I lazily didnt read the complete thread)

therealting

palsapal said:

I know it's never seen in musical instrument ads but the one that gets up my nose is "faux leather".  It's polyurethane so why pretend?

You sometimes do if it includes a gig bag.