Used Martin Rosewood Dread prices - Nov 21

earwighoney

artiebear said:

While understanding all that is being said here about the current market and the effect on pricing of s/h guitars, especially in light of a known issue for retailers getting hold of new Martins at the moment, I really don't think that there will be a reset in the future. New prices are only going one way while pushing up the s/h expectations. The post pandemic workplace along with a continued rise in the price of raw materials ( stored rosewood, mahogany has to be replenished with new as it is used ) plus continued rises in distribution costs, all mean that prices will continue to rise while new guitars will be less plentiful or will require a customer shift in terms of classic wood choices ( remember when all Martin's specified Mahogany for the neck, which quietly morphed into "genuine hardwood" on the spec sheet ). 

I hope you get fixed up with something that ticks the boxes soon.

The genuine hardwood for necks is something which comes up on the Martin forum a lot, I think most of the time it's Spanish Cedar, or used to be.

I remember reading a few posts that Spanish Cedar has been used by Martin for pretty much as long as they have been making guitars. 

artiebear

earwighoney said:

artiebear said:

While understanding all that is being said here about the current market and the effect on pricing of s/h guitars, especially in light of a known issue for retailers getting hold of new Martins at the moment, I really don't think that there will be a reset in the future. New prices are only going one way while pushing up the s/h expectations. The post pandemic workplace along with a continued rise in the price of raw materials ( stored rosewood, mahogany has to be replenished with new as it is used ) plus continued rises in distribution costs, all mean that prices will continue to rise while new guitars will be less plentiful or will require a customer shift in terms of classic wood choices ( remember when all Martin's specified Mahogany for the neck, which quietly morphed into "genuine hardwood" on the spec sheet ). 

I hope you get fixed up with something that ticks the boxes soon.

The genuine hardwood for necks is something which comes up on the Martin forum a lot, I think most of the time it's Spanish Cedar, or used to be.

I remember reading a few posts that Spanish Cedar has been used by Martin for pretty much as long as they have been making guitars. 

Until approx 15 years ago it was specified as mahogany. Nothing at all wrong with Spanish Cedar as a wood, but the change from specific to vague was intentional. 

Tannin

Guitar buyers are incredibly hidebound, to the point of being downright stupid. People insist on having the same-old, same-old materials, even though there are many equally good or better alternatives, even though our understanding of timbers and how to use them has improved greatly over the last 50 years, even though supplies of the traditional timbers are limited and unsustainable, and average quality of those timbers is well down on what it was because the best trees have all long since been used and current supplies are just the leftovers.

Modern makers with a clue are well and truly awake to some of the excellent modern neck timbers which are more sustainable and more readily available. The two main manufacturers in my part of the world are examples: Cole Clark uses Queensland Maple (nothing to do with Northern Hemisphere maples, it is a rainforest species vaguely related to citrus) for virtually all necks. Down the road at Maton, they mostly use Blackwood (an Acacia) but also some Queensland Maple, with  only one traditional high-end model line still sticking to mahogany. But note: that isn't because they think mahogany is the best neck timber, it is because that particular model line (unlike all their others) still uses traditional timbers. Their very best models use Blackwood, or in the case of the current $5000 Diamond 75th Anniversary model, Queensland Maple. Forward-looking manufacturers in other countries do similar things. Martin would too if only the more stupid of their customers would let them.

artiebear

Tannin said:

Guitar buyers are incredibly hidebound, to the point of being downright stupid. People insist on having the same-old, same-old materials, even though there are many equally good or better alternatives, even though our understanding of timbers and how to use them has improved greatly over the last 50 years, even though supplies of the traditional timbers are limited and unsustainable, and average quality of those timbers is well down on what it was because the best trees have all long since been used and current supplies are just the leftovers.

Modern makers with a clue are well and truly awake to some of the excellent modern neck timbers which are more sustainable and more readily available. The two main manufacturers in my part of the world are examples: Cole Clark uses Queensland Maple (nothing to do with Northern Hemisphere maples, it is a rainforest species vaguely related to citrus) for virtually all necks. Down the road at Maton, they mostly use Blackwood (an Acacia) but also some Queensland Maple, with  only one traditional high-end model line still sticking to mahogany. But note: that isn't because they think mahogany is the best neck timber, it is because that particular model line (unlike all their others) still uses traditional timbers. Their very best models use Blackwood, or in the case of the current $5000 Diamond 75th Anniversary model, Queensland Maple. Forward-looking manufacturers in other countries do similar things. Martin would too if only the more stupid of their customers would let them.

Thing is, Maton have no tradition to uphold so a pointless comparison. If a customer is buying a D28 they might ,rightly expect a guitar built to the design and woods that define a D28. I guess they are all stupid according to your definition. In truth Martin are not stupid enough to throw away the legacy which defines them, without that, they are gone. With regards to traditional materials, there are reasons why some work very well, others less so.

Tannin

Nonsense. Maton is older than Fender.

artiebear

Tannin said:

Nonsense. Maton is older than Fender.

So is my dad, your point being ? What's the Maton vintage market like and who the xxxx cares internationally ?

BigPaulie

Tannin said:

Guitar buyers are incredibly hidebound, to the point of being downright stupid. People insist on having the same-old, same-old materials, even though there are many equally good or better alternatives, even though our understanding of timbers and how to use them has improved greatly over the last 50 years, even though supplies of the traditional timbers are limited and unsustainable, and average quality of those timbers is well down on what it was because the best trees have all long since been used and current supplies are just the leftovers.

Modern makers with a clue are well and truly awake to some of the excellent modern neck timbers which are more sustainable and more readily available. The two main manufacturers in my part of the world are examples: Cole Clark uses Queensland Maple (nothing to do with Northern Hemisphere maples, it is a rainforest species vaguely related to citrus) for virtually all necks. Down the road at Maton, they mostly use Blackwood (an Acacia) but also some Queensland Maple, with  only one traditional high-end model line still sticking to mahogany. But note: that isn't because they think mahogany is the best neck timber, it is because that particular model line (unlike all their others) still uses traditional timbers. Their very best models use Blackwood, or in the case of the current $5000 Diamond 75th Anniversary model, Queensland Maple. Forward-looking manufacturers in other countries do similar things. Martin would too if only the more stupid of their customers would let them.

That's a very interesting post.

I'm all for using more sustainable timbers.

Please point me in the direction of a Maton or other guitar that's made from non traditional woods that sounds just like Don McLean's American Pie album. Because, for me, that's the sound in my head that I think of when I think "acoustic guitar". When I find that guitar I'll stop looking.

Tannin

artiebear said:

Tannin said:

Nonsense. Maton is older than Fender.

So is my dad, your point being ? What's the Maton vintage market like and who the xxxx cares internationally ?

Highly sought after, but hard to get. Collectors pay serious money for rare models.

But you are teeing off on one particular brand that you know little about and have have taken a dislike to, where the point I made is that all of the good quality forward-looking manufacturers today are making guitars from more sustainable timbers, and actively looking to improve on their progress so far. All over the world, the better guitar makers are learning new tricks. In Europe, Furch uses a lot of sustainable local timbers. In the USA, Breedlove pioneered timbers which are now considered mainstream, and Taylor has done a lot of work on this too. Martin - history or no history - is very interested in developing new and better materials. The Martin management people are not stupid, they know perfectly well that there is no more Brazilian Rosewood and very little of several other traditional timbers, and bit by bit, they are switching to alternatives - and making excellent guitars from them, by the way.

artiebear

Tannin said:

artiebear said:

Tannin said:

Nonsense. Maton is older than Fender.

So is my dad, your point being ? What's the Maton vintage market like and who the xxxx cares internationally ?

Highly sought after, but hard to get. Collectors pay serious money for rare models.

But you are teeing off on one particular brand that you know little about and have have taken a dislike to, where the point I made is that all of the good quality forward-looking manufacturers today are making guitars from more sustainable timbers, and actively looking to improve on their progress so far. All over the world, the better guitar makers are learning new tricks. In Europe, Furch uses a lot of sustainable local timbers. In the USA, Breedlove pioneered timbers which are now considered mainstream, and Taylor has done a lot of work on this too. Martin - history or no history - is very interested in developing new and better materials. The Martin management people are not stupid, they know perfectly well that there is no more Brazilian Rosewood and very little of several other traditional timbers, and bit by bit, they are switching to alternatives - and making excellent guitars from them, by the way.

No idea what "teeing off" is. You seem to be the only one focused upon Maton guitars, personally I couldn't  care less about the brand  ( or about Martin for that matter ). As it is, we all understand the arguments for sustainable woods etc.
 

markj

I might be interested in selling my HD28 reimagined if you’re interested. 

Mellish

I nearly put mine in classifieds within a month of buying it. I thought I'd never get used to the neck and nut width. But I had it professionally set up and it made a wonderful difference. It now has low action but sounds as big as a barn  

markj

Yes they're superb guitars and if I did sell it would probably regret it. 

icu81b4

BigPaulie said:

I've seen that Coda have a DR Centennial in with the Adi VTS top just now for £1499.

Looks like an interesting guitar, but a bit plain for me with the matt finish and lack of binding on the back edge.

The DR Centennial is a good guitar, Martin usually reserve the VTS process for much higher priced models. Also how often do you look at the back edge. 

BigPaulie

I've no doubt it is a nice guitar. Just not what I'm looking for.

If I owned it I'd be looking at the back edge all the time wishing it were bound.

Lewy

BigPaulie said:

I've no doubt it is a nice guitar. Just not what I'm looking for.

If I owned it I'd be looking at the back edge all the time wishing it were bound.

Yeah you can’t have niggles, even if there are rational reasons they shouldn’t be niggles. It’ll always bother you.

artiebear

@BigPaulie your strategy sound perfect. Get something with quality like a Yamaha R/W, if it still scratches an itch, go for the Martin. I still have my first D28 ( a whole history of blood,  gigs etc ). If I am honest.other guitars have become more important to me, but my D28 is still precious to me for all that it inspired me to go on to. I had to get the bridge plate sorted a few years ago, but it's still a classic for a certain sound. All the best |( sorry if some of my posts hijacked your original thread ).