Something nerdy about glue

Lewy

I was perusing the Collings forum the other day and saw some discussion of the fact that their Traditional range no longer uses animal protein glue as it did when it launched. Apparently their head luthier experimented and found they couldn't discern any difference between protein glue and their regular titebond, and the titebond proved better to work with in their production environment.

Kudos to them for changing rather than just carrying on for marketing purposes. Very much "what Bill would have done" I think.

octatonic

There is an argument to continue to use animal glues for any parts that might need to be periodically removed and reattached.

Traditionally it is bridges and neck joins.
There isn't much of an argument to be made for anywhere else.

The thing about animal glues is they have a very short open time, which forces you to work very quickly.
On a production line that might not make sense, so really this is a commercial decision.

In terms of sound, you'd need dog ears to tell the difference, I've done various tests as part of my lutherie degree to determine this. Other factors matter more.

Ricjo

Apologies for the lack of knowledge: is animal protein glue the same as hide glue?

Lewy

Ricjo said:

Apologies for the lack of knowledge: is animal protein glue the same as hide glue?

My understanding is yes, to all intents and purposes, but it might be made of bits of tissue other than hide so it’s more accurate to call it animal protein.

octatonic

Ricjo said:

Apologies for the lack of knowledge: is animal protein glue the same as hide glue?

Hide glue is subset of animal protein glue, there are various different animal glues that are not derived from hide.

Rabbit skin and hoof glues for example.

Ricjo

Got it - thanks. Makes sense. Thanks to both of you. 

And am surprised at the conclusion Collings drew. And more so the guts they had to ditch it. 

The markup in price for hide glide is pretty steep (at least for Martin guitars) and the hours of videos on YouTube justifying it all… Just goes to show. 

Thanks for sharing the info and additional clarification.

more

Years ago , when I first started making  classical guitars , hot hide  glue was the glue to use . Personally I   though is was disgusting stuff  and  used  Original Titebond instead . I don't see the advantage in hide glue . If you need reversibility then Cyanoacrylate  is a better choice .

Lewy

Ricjo said:

Got it - thanks. Makes sense. Thanks to both of you. 

And am surprised at the conclusion Collings drew. And more so the guts they had to ditch it. 

The markup in price for hide glide is pretty steep (at least for Martin guitars) and the hours of videos on YouTube justifying it all… Just goes to show. 

Thanks for sharing the info and additional clarification.

I think part of it is the Collings neck joint - it’s bolt on so technically the issue of being able to easily steam it open for next resets is reduced. You only need to steam the fingerboard extension and that may not even be necessary.

Kalimna

Titebond is by no means a barrier to removal and re-attachment (I know this firsthand from both an acoustic repair I did at Bailey Guitars, and also a fretboard that mis-aligned during glue-up that needed re-doing), application of heaat and leverage does the trick nicely.

The huge advantage that hide glue has over aliphatic resins (of which Titebond is an example, and they are basically advanced PVA) is that new glue will stick just as well to old glue. This is emphatically not the case with Titebond as you need a
clean wood-wood join each time.

Plus, hide glue stinks something rotten.

Adam

BillDL

Do you think Walter Trout has his custom guitars built using fish glue?

I used to live adjacent to a tenement where two old brothers lived above their cabinet making and repair workshop.  The slaughterhouse was a short distance away so they had plenty of pigs' hooves and bits of animal to boil in blackened metal pots all night.  The whole place stank to high heaven.

DavidR

Interesting there was not much difference between different sorts of glue.

Some people think there is though. Some Granada luthiers will only glue their instruments up in the evening because the humidity is better then. I have read.

Also animal glues must be more sensitive to subsequent variations in humidity than some modern glues I would have thought?? Don't actually know though.

Any brilliant luthiers about?!

guitarjack66

I am happy to hear that the majority of my horseracing selections are much more useful in their afterlife.