Nostaligic 70's and the future

ROOG

Reading a recent thread concerning nostalgic experiences with 70’s transistorised instrument amplifiers prompted me to reflect on the current market for guitar amplifiers. This market seems to be full of digital modellers, reissues of old valve favourites, and a bundle of ‘handmade’ boutique valve amplifiers promising the world, and all seemingly taking their ‘fair’ share of the market. Not with standing their strong presence in the acoustic guitar amplifier sector, the standalone, (I didn’t say cheap), solid-state amplifier seems to have largely fallen by the wayside, apparently un deserving of significant development or marketing. Yet, as a number of respected contributors to this forum and the ‘old place’ have suggested, many a working musician would be prepared to ‘trade’ the disadvantages of valve technology  for a; good quality, good sounding, solid state guitar amplifier.

Much as modellers are breaking into the market and attitudes towards them seem to be “softening”, is there not an opening for a well designed, reliable and light weight solid state guitar amplifier? Given that designs from the 60’s and 70’s were limited by the technology available at the time, surely  modern components and design techniques should be able to produce something worthy of the top name logos and which can compete with valve based technologies of similar cost?

What I do find intriguing is the interest in; pin compatible solid-state replacements for current valves, to come to market. Of course, we all want to maintain the operation of our kit for the least outlay, but if this approach does produce acceptable results, surely a bespoke solid-state solution would be no worse and in theory could be optimised without the encumbrance of conforming to octal base packaging and yet I don’t see too many people clambering for such an amp?

Perhaps this is a little simplistic, but with the good vibes an amp like the Peavey Bandit gets I wondered if there was the equivalent of a “Super Bandit” on a drawing board somewhere that can’t break though the marketing  barriers to break our emotional attachment to valves?

The future can't be in valves, can it? 

ESBlonde

I know it's hard to believe but the music industry is full of myths and half truths.

The first commercially available transistor amps were made by fender in 1966 who even then were regarded as the godfathers of all good things amplifier. Unfortunately they were badly designed and badly made (post CBS takeover) and they quickly got a bad reputation. As a consequence all transistor amps were viewed with suspicion and guitarists had a natural disdain for them preferring the old valve amps (like we still do) and the older guitars too. That mindset has persisted ever since.

There are plenty of bland average valve amps out there and a good quantity of bland average transistor amps too, but the good ones of each have stood the test of time. Remember too that a bad workman blames his tools and plenty of guitarists insist they have to have valves but their tone is (subjectively) poor. Others insist valves are their tone and run through an overdrive pedal all the time. 

The first time I heard and then played a 335 live in anger was through an HH IC100 (pre vs days) and an impact 2x12. Not a rig for the gear snobs of the day but it was simply beautiful. 

If you understand the amp and interact with it you can get nice musical sounds (usually). If you have to have a pre made tone then hardly anything will work for you.

I remember Carsboro as reliable loud and a little brash sounding which was ideal for lots of the puck new wave era bands. HH I've always liked because I heard so much great music made with it through the years.

The way valves and transistors deliver their power is different with valves having to use transformers that induce a different feel to the whole thing IMHO.

All that said, my favourite amp is still a 50w plexi that has been behind me for 3 decades and I measure everything against that (which might not seem fair).

Sporky

I've got two nice valve amps, but if I was gigging I reckon I'd go for something really grunty and Class D. Probably close to how a bass player might approach it - lightweight cabs, light powerful amp and all the sound-shaping done before the power amp.

That just strikes me as a better way of going about it. For me, at least.

martinw

Lets not get carried away. People stopped buying those old SS 70s amps for a reason **.

It's correct that when there's a good quality, sounds-as-good-as-valve amp on the market, people will buy it. (I would).

There isn't.

There's good reasons for that. Until someone invents an amplification device* that amplifies in the same way as a valve (which isn't likely as there's only us wants that and we don't buy enough to finance the R&D) then yes, the future could well be valves.

 

* - or manages to find a way to make existing SS devices sound exactly like valves. They've been trying for years and not succeeded so far.

** - generalising slightly

ROOG

I agree that we shouldnt get carried away, and yes early SS efforts were not so good, but given the baggage that comes with valves I'm surprised that very few seem to be putting any effort into resolving this challenge. I recall a similar argument with CRTs, except in that case the mass market allure of a flay screen tipped the balance and the "impossible" has become the norn.

Its the interest  in SS substitute valves that interests me, if that becomes a reality, why not 'proper SS amps?   

Hey, in the scheme of things its a small market, but disappointing never the less.       

EricTheWeary

I think the SS versus valves argument probably isn't the issue, it is SS versus digital. Digital just gives ( or in some cases gives the appearance of offering) a lot more for the money than SS. It seems that digital has basically killed off the lower priced SS market and I struggle to see how it can recover. Once your budget creeps into the £100's (or £1000's) then there are plenty of valve amps these days and so strong is the perception that valve is better then any SS amp is really coming from behind and few would invest in such a beast these days.And for those who have reached the end of the road with valves then digital modelling is already there.

Put me down for a Super Bandit as well but I don't think those of us on that waiting list constitute a big enough market for any major manufacturer to bother.

EricTheWeary

^ lot of use of the phrase 'these days' going on there for some reason.
:-\"

ICBM

Actually the first commercial transistor amps were by Vox - the T60 bass amp in 1962. Unfortunately the transistors were not very robust, and/or the designers didn't understand the abuse musicians would subject them to, and they also were not reliable. They did sound good though - I've played an original, never-blown-up one and it sounds wonderful clean and pretty nice as overdriven as I dared!

But the poor reliability killed them. So like the Fenders, they also helped to create the myth of solid-state being 'inferior'. It's been an uphill battle ever since...

I don't actually think a solid-state amp will ever sound exactly like a valve amp. The problem is that a lot of people do think that the only good sounds come from valve amps, so convincing them that a solid-state amp can sound great while not sounding like a valve amp is hard. Digital modelling is trying to square the circle, but to me doesn't sound right, even though it's superficially closer - I actually prefer the *tone* of solid-state analogue, even though the sound is different.

I now doubt serious money will be spent on high-quality analogue solid-state. There's almost no market for it and the perception is that digital is better (and getting better) - if solid-state sounds ever become popular again I would expect the simplest and cheapest way to achieve them will be via modelling.

ecc83

The "problem" with valve IMO is, or is going to be, cost and quality.

We are already seeing poor quality valves, if they are not failing outright they are hummy, hissy crackly and fail to meet specification. QC can only improve if costs rise. 

Then there is the Greens! We are hit with a double whammy here. Valves are woefully inefficient of course but they are also very dirty things to produce. As the valve producing countries are made to clean up valves will inevitably increase in price dramatically.

A sstate goody? Possible I believe but to be really flexible in the guitar amp/player world it would need an output transformer to "match" it to your favourite cab and this leads to all sorts of other design problems, just one of which is transistor protection. This would need to be 100% failsafe but NOT impair the sound! Tricky. The early hi fi amps with simple VI limiting did not manage it.

The above means that such a BSH amp would be almost as expensive as its valved equivalent (and to compete with say a 50watter the SState would need to be 100-150W. More "redundant" cost)...BIG investment gamble in these hard times.

Dave.

ROOG

At the end of the day digital modellers need a solid state power stage, perhaps as greater acceptance of such wizardry makes greater inroads into the upper end of the market manufacturers will be forced to consider developments in the solid state amp that is the power stage.  

Van_Hayden

I think there were earlier amps Kay, Burns orbit, Hagstrom did one in the early 60s.

I've got a couple of session amps, they're great clean. Stewart is building the blues baby which ustb a transistor replacment for the blues jnr. He's been doing some comparison demos, I've not had chance to listen yet.

The debate won't go away. Digital modelling may well offer the future, solid state may become acceptable but I can't see the romance guitarists have with valves going away. It's a feel, sight, sound and even smell thing....

ICBM

ROOG said:

At the end of the day digital modellers need a solid state power stage, perhaps as greater acceptance of such wizardry makes greater inroads into the upper end of the market manufacturers will be forced to consider developments in the solid state amp that is the power stage.  

No need. For a modeler, all you want is a reliable and totally clean power stage with a big enough power supply - essentially hi-fi design. All the 'valve power stage' characteristics can be - and are better - done by modelling since that way you can simulate different power valve and transformer types.

EricTheWeary

Van_Hayden said:

I think there were earlier amps Kay, Burns orbit, Hagstrom did one in the early 60s.

I've got a couple of session amps, they're great clean. Stewart is building the blues baby which ustb a transistor replacment for the blues jnr. He's been doing some comparison demos, I've not had chance to listen yet.

The debate won't go away. Digital modelling may well offer the future, solid state may become acceptable but I can't see the romance guitarists have with valves going away. It's a feel, sight, sound and even smell thing....

had a quick look at the Blues Baby, although not heard the clips.As it isn't available as a complete combo by the time you have made it ( or got someone else to make it) the cost is going to be pretty much on a par with a Fender Blues Jr isn't it? Albeit you can have some custom variations. The market for this must be tiny, surely? 

OilCityPickups

martinw said:

Lets not get carried away. People stopped buying those old SS 70s amps for a reason **.

It's correct that when there's a good quality, sounds-as-good-as-valve amp on the market, people will buy it. (I would).

There isn't.

There's good reasons for that. Until someone invents an amplification device* that amplifies in the same way as a valve (which isn't likely as there's only us wants that and we don't buy enough to finance the R&D) then yes, the future could well be valves.

 

* - or manages to find a way to make existing SS devices sound exactly like valves. They've been trying for years and not succeeded so far.

** - generalising slightly

I think most people realise that 1970s tranny amps won't sound the same as valves ... they didn't then and they won't now. However there was a lot of good music played and recorded on those amps, and it's equally true that you can't get the same sound as a seventies HH IC100 out of a valve amp.

As far I was aware the change in amp buying habits from transistor back to valve I believe coincided with an influx of much cheaper 'PCB based' valve models ... like my own (7 year old) Laney ... many coming from China. Certainly when I packed up my shop in 92/93 the market was still mostly tranny, with the likes of Crate, Session and Roland dominating what people were buying. There were, of course, the 'hybrids' with one or more preamp valves ... and the 'Valvestates' were immensely popular. In real terms 'valve watts' are probably cheaper than they've ever been, but the cheapest valve amps sacrifice quite a bit in  'repairability' to be in at their price point. Personally I have a yen to have a big HH behind me again ... as most cheap valve stuff feels distinctly Noddy and Bigears to me.
Personally my favorite amp of all time was my JTM45 ... and after that my 100w JMP Super Lead ... and after that would come the HH VS 2x12 combo. I think there is a place for transistor technology ... when it's not trying to be valve. Oh and most modelling sounds wrong to my ears ... worse than a 70s combo

OilCityPickups

martinw said:

Lets not get carried away. People stopped buying those old SS 70s amps for a reason **.

It's correct that when there's a good quality, sounds-as-good-as-valve amp on the market, people will buy it. (I would).

There isn't.

There's good reasons for that. Until someone invents an amplification device* that amplifies in the same way as a valve (which isn't likely as there's only us wants that and we don't buy enough to finance the R&D) then yes, the future could well be valves.

 

* - or manages to find a way to make existing SS devices sound exactly like valves. They've been trying for years and not succeeded so far.

** - generalising slightly

I think most people realise that 1970s tranny amps won't sound the same as valves ... they didn't then and they won't now. However there was a lot of good music played and recorded on those amps, and it's equally true that you can't get the same sound as a seventies HH IC100 out of a valve amp.

As far I was aware the change in amp buying habits from transistor back to valve I believe coincided with an influx of much cheaper 'PCB based' valve models ... like my own (7 year old) Laney ... many coming from China. Certainly when I packed up my shop in 92/93 the market was still mostly tranny, with the likes of Crate, Session and Roland dominating what people were buying. There were, of course, the 'hybrids' with one or more preamp valves ... and the 'Valvestates' were immensely popular. In real terms 'valve watts' are probably cheaper than they've ever been, but the cheapest valve amps sacrifice quite a bit in  'repairability' to be in at their price point. Personally I have a yen to have a big HH behind me again ... as most cheap valve stuff feels distinctly Noddy and Bigears to me.
Personally my favorite amp of all time was my JTM45 ... and after that my 100w JMP Super Lead ... and after that would come the HH VS 2x12 combo. I think there is a place for transistor technology ... when it's not trying to be valve. Oh and most modelling sounds wrong to my ears ... worse than a 70s combo

Rocker

I had a Carlsboro Stingray combo in the 1970s.  It sounded clean but a fairly decent country sound could be got from it [only if playing in a smallish pub].  Playing in a charity night, through the main artists rig, I realized that the clean sound of the Carlsboro was very sterile and hard.  I had the use of a 50 Watt Marshall head and a 4 * 12 cabinet for our half dozen songs, the sound quality of the Marshall combo was such that I had to get one for myself.

Jalapeno

I believe @Clarky takes a lot of time to set up his live tones - IIRC he ditched most presets as they sounded great through phones or in a small room, but crappy though his stereo 4x12 rig.  If planning to use a modeller bear this in mind - they're setup for home/recording, not big sound live usage.

koneguitarist

I think a problem that we have is in the question, can a SS amp sound as good as a valve amp ? Answer, of course. But can it sound as good as some of the best classic valve amps, then no ! Can the SS amps be used to make great music ? of course. What more do you need.

Van_Hayden

EricTheWeary;30854" said:

Van_Hayden said:

I think there were earlier amps Kay, Burns orbit, Hagstrom did one in the early 60s.



I've got a couple of session amps, they're great clean. Stewart is building the blues baby which ustb a transistor replacment for the blues jnr. He's been doing some comparison demos, I've not had chance to listen yet.



The debate won't go away. Digital modelling may well offer the future, solid state may become acceptable but I can't see the romance guitarists have with valves going away. It's a feel, sight, sound and even smell thing....





had a quick look at the Blues Baby, although not heard the clips.As it isn't available as a complete combo by the time you have made it ( or got someone else to make it) the cost is going to be pretty much on a par with a Fender Blues Jr isn't it? Albeit you can have some custom variations. The market for this must be tiny, surely? 

If you can pick up a second hand cab for £50 it could be an idea. It's more for people who've had their BJnr go bang with a bill for labour, new output valves and transformer. And burnt sockets if they're really lucky. If you've got £100+ bill to mend one it looks more interesting.

hywelg

martinw said:

Lets not get carried away. People stopped buying those old SS 70s amps for a reason **.

It's correct that when there's a good quality, sounds-as-good-as-valve amp on the market, people will buy it. (I would).

There isn't.

 I really really wanted to try, first hand, the Retro Wreck that was talked about at length a couple of years ago on TGP and then went deathly silent. I'm not sure its even still being made. Shame....

monquixote

The most recent attempt at a professional SS amp is the AMT Stonehead. By all accounts they sound pretty good. 

I've always wanted to try a Trademark 120 which is a proper attempt at a professional SS Amp. 

Sadly discontinued which is probably because no one bought them.