PA for dummies - advice, please!

Jonathangus

Right, muggins here has been nominated to be in charge of techy stuff, so it falls to me to explore the world of PA.  I'd envisage this being small pub gigs, for the foreseeable future at least.  The current setup of the band is:

One singer; hopefully to become two.

Two guitarists - Marshall 2204 and Orange Dual Terror

Bassist - Orange Crush Bass 50

Drums

So, I'm guessing we're going to need a mixer, speakers and monitors at the minimum.  But... so many variables - active speakers, or passive with separate amp?  Number of mixer channels?  Analogue or digital?  Wattage?  To sub or not to sub?  No idea of what brands to look at or avoid.  Happy to look at used gear.

All advice gratefully received.

mrkb

Start with checking out:-
Behringer XR18 - will allow plenty of future expansion and recording options. Easy to edit remotely.
Powered PA speakers - Yamaha DXR series, Mackie do some, etc - dont worry about sub unless you put Bass or kick drums through the PA.

HoraceB

Expensive,  but my band uses two Bose L1 system (older version) with extra bass bins, very portable, easy to set up and more importantly pack away. We play pubs & small venues and this easily keeps up with drums (we usually mic the kick for larger gigs). 

Roland

I love the XR18, but if you know absolutely nothing about PAs then a digital desk is a big first step because so many of the features are hidden. With an analogue desk every feature has switches or knobs that you can see at a glance. That’s especially important when you need to change something in the middle of a gig. 

How many channels depends on what music you play. A sub is big and heavy to store and transport, but if you’re playing rock music then a kick drum you can feel is part of the audience experience in larger venues. However you can always add one later. 

For smaller pub gigs, and no previous experience, you could keep it simple and start with a PA just for vocals. That’s what we did in the 60’s. Get a PA with enough channels for your singers and backing vocals. Get powered speakers, at least 250w per side. Get heavy duty speaker and mic stands. Then you can upgrade each item separately as your needs and your experience develop. 

StageStruck

It's down to budget I suppose.

There's a fair amount of older PA systems going around that can be picked up fairly cheaply. Check out Gumtree & Facebook Marketplace, there's often a few listed at any given time. I managed to assemble a PA for £160 this way (Phonic Power Pod 715 - £70 & Peavey Pro 15s - £90). Not the most sophisticated rig but by no means the worst, but it does fine for pub gigs and probably the sort of thing that you'd find in many rehearsal rooms.

RocknRollDave

Just an opinion, but for what it is worth:

It might be counter-intuitive, but running something through the PA (eg guitar, drums) is NOT always about adding more volume. It can help to make for a more even spread of sound, or for a less ridiculously loud stage.

TL:DR version = don't be afraid to mic up more than just the singers.

chor808

Just had to do the same as the op. Five piece band, I ended up getting two active speakers, dB technology, a behringer 16 channel analog mixer and stands etc. Spent about 800 in total and it sounds great for small pubs.. We intend to go direct into the mixer with only monitors on stage at the next gig. We might add a sub later. Take time to understand the mixer and it's controls. Been a steep curve but good fun.

Jonathangus

That Behringer XR18 looks interesting - in fact, it might be what we've got in the rehearsal room we use.  We don't have to work it, though.

My gut feeling is to start with something simple while we find our feet.  I'm wondering whether 50W of bass power is enough, though?

maltingsaudio

I would suggest you try and shadow the sound guy of another band or a PA company or something like that befor splashing out any money on anything to get an idea of what you might need.

You said small pub gigs to begin with so I would start with a  vocal PA then see what you think your going to need, and certainly go second hand to begin with. In my opinion the only way to begin learning how a PA works and goes together is to start with an analogue desk because the signal flow is obvious ,source - mic - desk -amplifier -speakers effects send to effects return then effects to mains, monitor sends to monitors are all on physical knobs which are either turned up or not, on a digital mixer very easy miss something and if your not experienced .

PhilKing

We use the Behringer Xenyx X2442USB analog mixer with powered 15" speaker PA for some gigs and 12" PA speakers on others (we have the tripod stands foe the speakers too).  We did one gig for 2,000 people and used both sets of speakers, but really the powered 12's will be sufficient.  We have 4 singers, 2 guitarists, violin, keyboards, electronic drum kit and bass.  We also have someone to run the desk at the gig and a 50ft multicore with a 25ft stage extension.  We use a cheaper powered mixer and 10" PA cabs for the monitor system.  It's a lot of stuff that we picked up over a few years gigging.  

You can get a smaller analog mixer and the powered 12" PA speakers and a couple of monitors.  It's pretty easy to work out stuff and make adjustments with an analog mixer, as all the knobs are there.  This one also has compression on the xlr channels, which helps on vocals and acoustic instruments.

darius

Thomann used to do a really good package deal for ‘starter PA’ system. Their stuff is great for budget. Not sure how good a deal it all is nowadays.

Danny1969

I would go for a smallish analog non powered desk with built in effects ... Then add a power amp and a decent set of passive speakers. You could score all this used for less than £300 on a good day. 

Digital desks are incredibly versatile but not really easy to use to begin with, especially surfaceless types which rely purely on ipad control. If you do go down that route though then the Soundcraft Ui series is better built than the Behringer and a bit cheaper. Plus you can control it with any browser on any device, no matter how old. 

Active speakers are seen to be better than passive speakers these days but they really aren't. A decent pair of used Peavey / HK / Yamaha etc speakers paired with a good old class AB power amp will last longer than a modern set of active class D speakers and in a lot of cases be lighter to lift onto a stand. 
Active speakers do have an advantage at very big gigs with very long speaker runs as the speaker cable adds in series resistance but in a pub / club situation a passive speaker is actually easier to use as it requires no mains. 

ICBM

Jonathangus said:

My gut feeling is to start with something simple while we find our feet.  I'm wondering whether 50W of bass power is enough, though?

No, probably not - not unless it's valve and through a giant cab, probably at least a big 1x15" with a good speaker or a 4x10". A 50W solid-state combo with an average-quality 12" speaker is unlikely to be.

The good news is that if you put the bass through the PA as well then it should be fine as a monitor for the bass on stage, but in that case you will need a sub(s).

In fact, you always need subs really - unless it's truly just for vocals and acoustic instruments. Subs allow you to reduce the size, power and cost of the top cabinets, *at the same time* as producing a better sound at higher volume if necessary and filling the space better, because they remove the need to put very low frequencies through the top boxes, which reduces the stress on the whole system.

If you get two then you don't need stands for the top cabs either - just poles - subs are more stable and take up less space, and even though you don't need two in a small room (so you could have one and one stand) it's good to have a backup as well.

You can actually mix the technology perfectly well too - my set-up is a pair of passive 1x10" top cabs driven from an old-fashioned analogue 150W per channel mixer amp, plus a single 250W 1x15" powered sub. It's not sophisticated but perfectly adequate for pubs where I'm going to be mixing from the stage. (If there actually is one .)

Jonathangus

Thanks, chaps.  Lots to think about.

So at the moment I'm veering towards the simple route of vocal-only PA - I think that will probably do for our immediate needs - but looking towards future-proofing also: if we were to put instruments and drums through the PA as well, that would need a minimum of nine mic inputs, yes?  2 vox, 2 guitar, bass, kick, snare, 2 overheads.  I've noticed that quite a few mixers have, say, 8 XLR inputs, but then some of the channels can take stereo jacks as well.  Would it be possible to use one of the stereo channels for the overheads?

mike257

Jonathangus said:

Thanks, chaps.  Lots to think about.

So at the moment I'm veering towards the simple route of vocal-only PA - I think that will probably do for our immediate needs - but looking towards future-proofing also: if we were to put instruments and drums through the PA as well, that would need a minimum of nine mic inputs, yes?  2 vox, 2 guitar, bass, kick, snare, 2 overheads.  I've noticed that quite a few mixers have, say, 8 XLR inputs, but then some of the channels can take stereo jacks as well.  Would it be possible to use one of the stereo channels for the overheads?

The stereo channels with two jacks rather than an XLR input will generally be line level, rather than microphone level (microphones need a buttload more gain than a line level source) so aren't always suited. Additionally, you'd usually use a condenser mic for overheads, which require phantom power. This wouldn't be provided over a jack input, only the XLRs. 

To be honest, on a small, loud stage you'll be fighting for less cymbals, not more. Every live vocal mic on stage is an extra overhead and will be full of cymbals and snare, especially if your drummer is particularly hard hitting. I'd start with a kick mic (scoop the low mids out of it - the beater attack in the high end helps give definition to each hit and will make it feel more present, don't try and push the low end too hard if you're not running subs) and see how you get on. I've done many function band gigs with just a kick and a single overhead, and barely used the overhead at all, and I've done touring gigs with 14+ channels of drum mics where I've used the whole lot, but in your situation, keeping it simple is the best approach!

Danny1969

Jonathangus said:

Thanks, chaps.  Lots to think about.

So at the moment I'm veering towards the simple route of vocal-only PA - I think that will probably do for our immediate needs - but looking towards future-proofing also: if we were to put instruments and drums through the PA as well, that would need a minimum of nine mic inputs, yes?  2 vox, 2 guitar, bass, kick, snare, 2 overheads.  I've noticed that quite a few mixers have, say, 8 XLR inputs, but then some of the channels can take stereo jacks as well.  Would it be possible to use one of the stereo channels for the overheads?

No, because overhead mics are generally condensor mics which require phantom power and thus a balanced  XRL socket. To be honest though you don't really need overhead mics on a kit unless the venue and stage  is pretty big ... say 300 people upwards. Using overheads on a small stage will generally cause problems due to their wide pickup pattern and sensitivity. 

Some sockets on some desks are stereo, so tip is wired hard left and ring hard right. Other identical looking sockets will be TRS though, which is hot, cold and ground  same as an XRL socket. These are generally fine for signals that don't need a huge amount of mic gain, keys. sample pads, strong mic signals like drum etc

There's a lot of desks with 12 mic pre amps  and 2 stereo line ins, there will generally be called something 16 as technically they can process 16 channels of audio

Jonathangus

Lovely, thanks again.

Our drummer is one of those rare beasts who could do with hitting a bit harder.

jca74

Also, don't expect that there willl necessarily be space for monitors at a pub gig. You are often lucky if you can move without taking out a mike stand with your headstock....

maltingsaudio

Tbh I wouldn’t worry too much about future proofing as pa, like buying guitars, is a never ending journey. I would however suggest 8 xlr inputs as a bare minimum for a first time buy, and at least a couple of aux sends (even if you don’t use them in anger, you’ll get an idea of how to use them by just playing) .

Ps I always mic bass drum and hi hat befor anything else as to me this is where the groove lies

uncledick

+1 for mic-ing the guitars.  I use my Cornell on stage on the 2W setting with the volume at about 4.  A Sennheiser 906 goes  to the X-Air and FOH is 2 DXR10s.  Bass (which is active) goes straight in the desk.  I know SM58s are the go-to mic for vocals but I think there are better options for pub type venues.  The other thing we've started is to put the FOH speakers maybe a third of the way into the crowd.  This will fill the room more effectively and save a whole lot of feedback issues.

Slightly off topic, but I've asked about this setup and feedback issues before on here and I just thought I'd share that turning off the compressor/expander on the desk fixed 90% of the problems.  I man the iPad  in between strumming duties and things are a lot more controllable now.