Acoustic Pickups - Am I 10 years out of date?

Andy_Strings

I've got 2 acoustics that need pickups, my 'go to' choice has always been either K&K Western Mini (triple) or Fishman Rare Earth Blend, both work great with a Red Eye Fire Eye preamp.  10+ years ago, I tried pretty much everything and settled on these.  Any other recommendations that have come to market recently? Ideally with a soundhole volume control?

I'm all ears.

Lestratcaster

I'm using the Schertler AG6 with my Martin D28. It has an external S-Mic which plugs in so you can blend in the sound of a condenser. I will warn you though the first two pickups they sent me were faulty and I'm on my 3rd which so far is working fine.

But when it works properly it sounds great.

4114Effects

I use LR Baggs Anthem. Closest thing to a mic'd up guitar I've heard yet. Lyric is also good for a less intrusive install. 

Lewy

The K&K (now called the Pure Mini but same pickup) is still the best thing going if you don’t want a load of gubbins in your guitar.

I think the main development since 10 years ago is on the preamp side of things rather than the pickup side. Impulse Response-based preamps like the ToneDexter, LR Baggs Voiceprint and even the cheap and cheerful NUX Optima Air are the things that are really moving plugged-in acoustic sounds on to the next level of realism, and they seem to work well driven by a K & K (based on my experience with the Voiceprint and Optima Air anyway).

TheMadMick

I have  K&K in my Guild but, to my ears, it always sounded a bit "thin". I then rescued an LR Baggs para acoustic equaliser DI from a friend I sold it to but he wasn't using it. The K&K sounds wonderful through that.

It's not just the pick up that's important!!!

Cryptid

K&K and LR Baggs Lyric sound good to me for fingerpicking, but need external EQ.

I never found an acoustic pickup that sounded great for strumming until I tried a Trance Audio Amulet MV in my old D28. It really did sound like the guitar, just louder. Sound engineers would comment on how great it sounded straight in. Not cheap though and import duties sting. 

Andy_Strings

TheMadMick said:

It's not just the pick up that's important!!!

K&K used to always make it very clear that an external preamp was 'required' not simply recommended.  I use RedEye Fire Eye preamps, the most natural and neutral I've come across, they not cheap but sound great.  I also have a K&K dual preamp, it's better than many... but not a patch on the RedEye.   Were you using it without any preamp? presumably just a DI?

TheBigDipper

Andy_Strings said:

TheMadMick said:

It's not just the pick up that's important!!!

K&K used to always make it very clear that an external preamp was 'required' not simply recommended.  I use RedEye Fire Eye preamps, the most natural and neutral I've come across, they not cheap but sound great.  I also have a K&K dual preamp, it's better than many... but not a patch on the RedEye.   Were you using it without any preamp? presumably just a DI?

I buy "non electro" guitars and use K&Ks. I've found nothing better at capturing the acoustic guitar apart from a mic in a quiet room, as far as I can tell. Passive, hence the need for a preamp. They sound awful without one - especially if you plug into less that the K&K-requested 1MOhm socket (the input to an audio interface, for example). I use the K&K XLR Preamp and have also had good results with a FlyRig Acoustic - but I'm just feeding a PA with those. Decent acoustic guitar amps also sound good plugged straight in.

Any guitar that needs a battery is likely to have a preamp and other gubbins "on board" already, which might sound better than expected but, ultimately, is part of the guitar and will fail, or you'll want to upgrade one day. My mate just had to give up on a much-loved (and decades-old) Yamaha 12 string (as a stereo electro acoustic) because they couldn't get the parts to fix the electronics.

I'm firmly in the camp of "capture faithfully what you can on the guitar and do the rest on off-board gear". 

It's also cheaper if you have more than one guitar. You may need multiple pickups, but only one preamp. 

RickLucas

I have the Fishman Rare Earth blend, but tend to use only the internal condenser mic. The pickup is mounted in the soundhole and I think it restricts the top from vibrating , so I have just swapped it out for the Lyric. Now the guitar looks better without the Fishman soundhole pickup. Both are active so the signal is strong enough for the PA, but depending on the EQ available, a preamp of some sort is required. I just got the para DI from LR Baggs. I used to have the Lyric in a Baby Taylor and it sounded thin and fed back. Now it's in a dread and sounds much better. But that is more to do with the guitar, I think. Here is an interesting comparison:

Test Review: L.R.Baggs Lyric vs Fishman Rare Earth Blend - Larrivee P09 Parlor Guitar - YouTube

And this guy talks sense:

The Biggest MYTH About Acoustic Guitar Pickups ★ Acoustic Tuesday 167 - YouTube

Lewy

I had a torrid time of it gigging with a Lyric. It was great for really small gigs where I was doing my own sound but it seemed to completely confound sound engineers who could never dial it in (I suspect because they saw a plugged in guitar and just went with whatever settings they always use for a piezo) and I was always slightly bothered by this peculiar response in the mid-range. When I switched to K&K I could definitely hear that it didn't have the same potential to sound as good as the Lyric but instantly and consistently got better sound in my real world scenarios with the K&K.

I also have a pet theory that the K&K sounds better to me because once you add in the PA speakers and moving air in a physical space, the total adds up to something that feels and sounds more like an acoustic guitar to me, whereas the systems which are designed to give a DI signal that itself sounds like a mic'd acoustic end up sounding and feeling more artificial. That's just my interpretation of personal experience - I have no knowledge to back it up!

TheBigDipper

Lewy said:

I had a torrid time of it gigging with a Lyric. It was great for really small gigs where I was doing my own sound but it seemed to completely confound sound engineers who could never dial it in (I suspect because they saw a plugged in guitar and just went with whatever settings they always use for a piezo) and I was always slightly bothered by this peculiar response in the mid-range. When I switched to K&K I could definitely hear that it didn't have the same potential to sound as good as the Lyric but instantly and consistently got better sound in my real world scenarios with the K&K.

I also have a pet theory that the K&K sounds better to me because once you add in the PA speakers and moving air in a physical space, the total adds up to something that feels and sounds more like an acoustic guitar to me, whereas the systems which are designed to give a DI signal that itself sounds like a mic'd acoustic end up sounding and feeling more artificial. That's just my interpretation of personal experience - I have no knowledge to back it up!

That resonates with me. The only time I get to hear several different guitars with different pickup systems going into the sa,me PA is at Open Mics. The K&Ks always seem to have a better sound than anything else - including people using IR-loading BodyRez type stuff from the cheaper end of the market.

I really don't want to come across a ToneDexter in case I like it too much. :-) 

WindmillGuitars

K&K UltraPure is the ticket ... 

Supportact

As @Lewy said above the big change in the last 10 years is probably all the IR technology based stuff that's come out. I use a Fishman Matrix pickup with a Fishman Aura Spectrum preamp pedal which works very well. Although, that's not exactly 'new' these days and I've not tried the Tonedexter which seems to get very good reviews.

The thing I'd say about my experience with the Aura (and applying the various 'aura'/IR profiles) is that it can sound excellent but it does take some patience and trial and error to get it right. It took me a while to find the right aura profile for my guitar and learn how to apply it and set it up for different live environments. Results can vary a lot with different PA set ups, different rooms, and at different volumes so you really have to be able to experiment with it at gig volume.

I've also got a Schertler soundhole pickup (with the optional microphone) in one of my guitars and that sounds great and is much less finicky about different systems and just seems to consistently provide a nice natural acoustic sound regardless of the PA/amp. If I was starting again I might just go this route for simplicity. The Aura is great and well worth looking into IRs and modelling but might depend on if you're someone who likes to tinker and spend time with it as opposed to just getting a usable sound with least fuss.

crunchman

Most of the external IR preamp things seem to be designed to work best with an undersaddle piezo.  These days I'd go that route.

Lewy

crunchman said:

Most of the external IR preamp things seem to be designed to work best with an undersaddle piezo.  These days I'd go that route.

That's always been my assumption based on historical experience of the Aura where you couldn't create your own IRs using your pickup and your guitar. The newer generation where you do make your own IR seem to work well with SBTs like the K&K as well. I even got a decent result with a Fishman Rare Earth soundhole pickup.

Andy_Strings

It's been interesting reading the input and somebody mentioned the critical recommended 1meg impedence for a K&K - it makes a huge difference as does a any good buffer.

After trying the latest IR and modelling options, I've spent a few days re-listening to my own guitars. A Fishman Rare Earth Blend, LR Baggs M1 Active, a Sunrise, Schertler BluStik and the K&K into a RedEye FireEye.  Comparing them to a good condenser mic in a live setting, I'm happy that nothing has changed to my ears, K&K Pure Western Mini when I can use my own preamp or the Rare Earth Blend if it's straight into a generic DI.

It seems that loads of companies are offering solutions to problems that don't exist and there will always be a market for 'new stuff'