Last night's gig may have finally convinced me to go digital...

sjo89

My band had one of those gigs last night i.e. one that makes you question your gear choices - in fact we've had a few of them recently.
We're a heavy alt-rock 4 piece - 2 guitars, bass drums, 2 vox and are drummer has the touch of a blacksmith and as such are amps have to be set LOUD. Issue is most of the gigs we do a support slots in small venues with tiny stages and last night may have been the final straw for me.

My ears are still ringing and frankly it was just dangerously loud. But, more to the point, was I don't think we, or any of the bands, sounded good with that set up i.e. loud drums, loud amps, small room. Also, as seems to keep happening, we were asked to provide the guitar amps for backline so were forced to stay to the very end and let others abuse our gear. Worst thing was venue was up 3 flights of stairs! 

I use an AC15, which is probably one of the best power to weight ratio amps out there. It's not crazy heavy, but heavy enough to make taking it to gigs a hassle. I also have a decent size pedalboard, nothing crazy, it's a Templeboard trio 21, but with all the wires and case, it's pretty heavy to lug around.

Now I've always been a pedal guy as I'm convinced they sound better than modellers. BUT, I also know modellers sound awesome as well. Furthermore, at the volume we're playing at, any nuance or difference in sound quality is completely lost as the sheer noise level negates any of that completely. Plus, it doesn't matter how nice my amp and pedals are, they're still miced up through the same crappy PA being mixed by a mediocre sound guy.

I'm essentially weighing up selling all my gear and getting a quad cortex and FRFR cab. I'm also wondering if anyone directly monitors themselves with IEM's from their modeller? My band can't afford an IEM rig, but all I really need to hear is my guitar, which I never get enough of in the monitors. So I'm thinking of having 2 sends, one to FOH and one to a set of headphones for me. Does anyone else do this?

Moe_Zambeek

Couple of thoughts:

I feel like you might be diverting attention onto your amp and away from the actual problem.

If your drummer can’t control himself and the whole band can’t get IEMs and you’re playing smaller venues, whatever you run is going to have to be loud, digital or otherwise. Too loud drums will kill your hearing very quickly and volume wars are a disaster for actually sounding good. 

Get your drummer to ease up.
Get some good quality earplugs.
As a support band we always said no to any request to supply backline. 

ElectricXII

I totally agree with Moe_Zambeek. Your gear is not the problem, it's your drummer.

euan

Spend the hundred odd quid on a set of custom moulded earplugs, you need to look after your ears 

sjo89

euan said:

Spend the hundred odd quid on a set of custom moulded earplugs, you need to look after your ears 

I actually ordered some expensive earplugs today ha!

sjo89

Moe_Zambeek said:

Couple of thoughts:

I feel like you might be diverting attention onto your amp and away from the actual problem.

If your drummer can’t control himself and the whole band can’t get IEMs and you’re playing smaller venues, whatever you run is going to have to be loud, digital or otherwise. Too loud drums will kill your hearing very quickly and volume wars are a disaster for actually sounding good. 

Get your drummer to ease up.
Get some good quality earplugs.
As a support band we always said no to any request to supply backline. 

True my gear isn't the issue in regards to volume - but in regards to convenience, reliability etc. I'm finding it hard to justify for the miniscule tonal gains I may or may not be getting. Also, getting a modeller would make the process of going IEM much easier no?

monquixote

ElectricXII said:

I totally agree with Moe_Zambeek. Your gear is not the problem, it's your drummer.

Yep if a drummer plays like a lunatic you will always sound crap.

Roland

sjo89 said:

... getting a modeller would make the process of going IEM much easier no?

Not necessarily. In the mean time you’ll be struggling to hear your other band members over the drummer and the guitar in your ears. Your audience will continue to be pounded into submission. Fix the drummer.

Caffeine_Vampire

No need for Thor - God of Thunder on drums. Replace or retrain. 

digitalscream

sjo89 said:

Moe_Zambeek said:

Couple of thoughts:

I feel like you might be diverting attention onto your amp and away from the actual problem.

If your drummer can’t control himself and the whole band can’t get IEMs and you’re playing smaller venues, whatever you run is going to have to be loud, digital or otherwise. Too loud drums will kill your hearing very quickly and volume wars are a disaster for actually sounding good. 

Get your drummer to ease up.
Get some good quality earplugs.
As a support band we always said no to any request to supply backline. 

True my gear isn't the issue in regards to volume - but in regards to convenience, reliability etc. I'm finding it hard to justify for the miniscule tonal gains I may or may not be getting. Also, getting a modeller would make the process of going IEM much easier no?

Yes. Convenience, reliability and low maintenance overhead have always been advantages of modellers. In a heavy rock band, the nuances of tiny tonal gains are lost completely anyway, and another advantage of modellers is that you don't have to compromise any of your tones for the sake of any of the others (ie no compromises due to shared EQ etc).

I mean...obviously, sort your drummer out, but also buy new things.

Majorscale

Sounds like if anyone should go digital then it’s the drummer. Once he has a volume control the levels get easier and you sound better.

maltingsaudio

sjo89 said:

euan said:

Spend the hundred odd quid on a set of custom moulded earplugs, you need to look after your ears 

I actually ordered some expensive earplugs today ha!

This is the problem , think about it

digitalscream

Moe_Zambeek said:

As a support band we always said no to any request to supply backline. 

Also, this.

If the promoter wants to supply the backline, that's their decision. If they want us to supply it...they can use our cabs, but amps are out of the question.

I did have one ask a couple of years ago, and I said "no". They promised our amps to the other bands anyway...got really shitty when we showed up and refused, so I pulled the Powerstage 170 out of my rucksack and said, "OK, what do you think they're going to do with this?". He bitched and moaned about how I should've told him about it and how I'd ruined the night etc, to which I replied, "I did say 'no'. Well, if you'd stop promising other people's equipment to bands against their wishes, you wouldn't be in this mess.".

I still wonder about the kind of guitarist who shows up to a gig without an amp. They're certainly not the kind of person I'd want using mine.

Jalapeno

Majorscale said:

Sounds like if anyone should go digital then it’s the drummer. Once he has a volume control the levels get easier and you sound better.

This, and more importantly somebody else potentially has control of the drummer's volume

(helped a lot with our drummer's anger management therapy drumming style)

Jalapeno

digitalscream said:

I still wonder about the kind of guitarist who shows up to a gig without an amp. They're certainly not the kind of person I'd want using mine.

I agree, it's wierd, the only times I don't have an amp if explicitly told not to bring one - like a jam session or the like

sjo89

Ok so I feel like my real point of this post is getting side tracked by my loud drummer comment. I'm not saying going digital is going to make us sound better. It was more a question of it allowing my to go to in ears more easily. Maybe even self monitoring with some open back ear phones so I can still hear rest of band.

darthed1981

I wouldn't want to lug an AC15 up 3 flights of stairs, that's what would put me off!

A modeller can go in a nice little bag you can shove on the other shoulder to your guitar, job done!

robinbowes

sjo89 said:

Ok so I feel like my real point of this post is getting side tracked by my loud drummer comment. I'm not saying going digital is going to make us sound better. It was more a question of it allowing my to go to in ears more easily. Maybe even self monitoring with some open back ear phones so I can still hear rest of band.

No, the real point (as correctly identified) is that you will never sound good in a small venue with a loud drummer. IEMS or not, it will sound shit  out front if everyone's too loud because of the drummer.

Really, sort that out, and everything else becomes a matter of choice rather than an issue.

R.
(Guitar player, sound engineer, acoustics graduate)

Danny1969

sjo89 said:

snip

I'm essentially weighing up selling all my gear and getting a quad cortex and FRFR cab. I'm also wondering if anyone directly monitors themselves with IEM's from their modeller? My band can't afford an IEM rig, but all I really need to hear is my guitar, which I never get enough of in the monitors. So I'm thinking of having 2 sends, one to FOH and one to a set of headphones for me. Does anyone else do this?

I use a modeller and IEM's .... it's OK at bigger venues but in a smaller venue situation where the crowd can get right up to the front of the band it creates another problem ... with no backline the people at the very front & middle will basically hear the drums and whatever is  in the front wedges ... If the band aren't used to no backline then they might it strange too. 

Gearing up for IEM's doesn't need to be expensive. If you use a guitar cable then wireless IEM's are pointless. You can just run the IEM feed up a combo cable which does your guitar and IEM's in one cable. I have been on this system for 12 years or so. In terms of getting a signal from FOH, well it depends on what's there. If they have active wedges then you can just feed your IEM amp from the pass through socket. If they are using passive wedges then you need to ask for an aux send. Pref 2 as IEM's are so much nicer in stereo. 

I designed and built my own gadget for festival gigs so I could have control in my IEM's of my vocal and guitar volume completely independent of the festival engineers  .... I built it in a pedal format but you can achieve more or less the same thing by buying a little mixer and a little passive mic splitter if you sing as well. 



The simplest way to monitor yourself through a modeller though is Main outs of modeller to PA and headphone out of modeller to input of combo cable, like the one below 

sjo89

robinbowes said:

sjo89 said:

Ok so I feel like my real point of this post is getting side tracked by my loud drummer comment. I'm not saying going digital is going to make us sound better. It was more a question of it allowing my to go to in ears more easily. Maybe even self monitoring with some open back ear phones so I can still hear rest of band.

No, the real point (as correctly identified) is that you will never sound good in a small venue with a loud drummer. IEMS or not, it will sound shit  out front if everyone's too loud because of the drummer.

Really, sort that out, and everything else becomes a matter of choice rather than an issue.

R.
(Guitar player, sound engineer, acoustics graduate)

I think thats a fair point and its something we will bring up in next rehearsal. TBF, the drummer has it tough in such small venues as he's gonna be crazy loud almost no matter what he does. Your point of 'youll sound shit no matter what' kinda feeds into my statement about wondering whether all the gear is worth it to begin with - at least at this stage and at our levels in the venues we're playing...

digitalscream

sjo89 said:

robinbowes said:

sjo89 said:

Ok so I feel like my real point of this post is getting side tracked by my loud drummer comment. I'm not saying going digital is going to make us sound better. It was more a question of it allowing my to go to in ears more easily. Maybe even self monitoring with some open back ear phones so I can still hear rest of band.

No, the real point (as correctly identified) is that you will never sound good in a small venue with a loud drummer. IEMS or not, it will sound shit  out front if everyone's too loud because of the drummer.

Really, sort that out, and everything else becomes a matter of choice rather than an issue.

R.
(Guitar player, sound engineer, acoustics graduate)

I think thats a fair point and its something we will bring up in next rehearsal. TBF, the drummer has it tough in such small venues as he's gonna be crazy loud almost no matter what he does. Your point of 'youll sound shit no matter what' kinda feeds into my statement about wondering whether all the gear is worth it to begin with - at least at this stage and at our levels in the venues we're playing...

Nah. My band's heavy rock, with a beastly drummer and two guitars. We played a gig at a pub a couple of weeks back, where there was so little room on the "stage" (really, a nook in front of the window you couldn't even fit a pool table in) that we were practically sat on top of our amps. We had just a vocal PA with 15" speakers and a single 10" monitor.

We put the kick through the PA, carefully, and...the whole band sounded great, not too loud, perfectly balanced from every angle.

The only reason for this is that our drummer is good enough that he can rein it in without sounding shit.

All the guitar gear is worth it, even in small venues, but only if your drums and bass sound right to begin with. If they don't, or they're unbalanced, your gear's worth nothing.