Good wee flatpicking lesson focusing on rolls and crosspicking.

Lewy

BigPaulie said:

Lewy said:

...The pulse comes from a fairly strict adherence to the principles that you play down beats with a downstroke and up beats with an upstroke....perpetual down up down up down up ... and that means the beat is always emphasised.

Do I foresee a descent into the old "down up down" Vs "down down up" argument?

When I started crosspicking I felt that ""down up down" made more sense. Norman Blake pretty much sticks religiously to "down up down" and his flow and feel are impeccable. There are many more technically proficient pickers out there, but his musicality is unsurpassed IMO.

Recently I have begun to experiment with "down down up" as I can personally get a better flow and evenness although I can't yet achieve the same speed as with "down up down". Tony Rice, whom for many is the pinnacle of acoustic guitar flatpicking, played "down down up" and made regular use of economy picking and other techniques not thought of as belonging in traditional flatpicking.

FWIW I'm currently playing "down down up" when going low to high, and "up down down" when going high to low.

As ever, there are far more than one way to skin a cat.

Nah - for me there's not debate really....they both have very different sounds and feels and the best thing to do is learn both. I struggle with DDU .... to make it sound right the downs have to be rest strokes and I find it hard to do that without introducing huge amounts of tension. I literally can't do DDU and breath at the same time. DUDU not a problem, but it doesn't have "that sound" e.g. the power of George Shuffler or Clarence White.

Both Tony and Wyatt Rice seem to be genetically disposed to ripping out DDU at great speed...it's clearly just how they learned when they were little and their hands have grown doing that movement. When you look at Tony's unorthodox picking, you can usually find it's using that DDU movement for economy. For what it's worth, I see him as the pinnacle of bluegrass guitar as opposed to flatpicking. That will always be a tie between Doc and Norman for me

BigPaulie

Lewy said:

BigPaulie said:

Lewy said:

...The pulse comes from a fairly strict adherence to the principles that you play down beats with a downstroke and up beats with an upstroke....perpetual down up down up down up ... and that means the beat is always emphasised.

Do I foresee a descent into the old "down up down" Vs "down down up" argument?

When I started crosspicking I felt that ""down up down" made more sense. Norman Blake pretty much sticks religiously to "down up down" and his flow and feel are impeccable. There are many more technically proficient pickers out there, but his musicality is unsurpassed IMO.

Recently I have begun to experiment with "down down up" as I can personally get a better flow and evenness although I can't yet achieve the same speed as with "down up down". Tony Rice, whom for many is the pinnacle of acoustic guitar flatpicking, played "down down up" and made regular use of economy picking and other techniques not thought of as belonging in traditional flatpicking.

FWIW I'm currently playing "down down up" when going low to high, and "up down down" when going high to low.

As ever, there are far more than one way to skin a cat.

Nah - for me there's not debate really....they both have very different sounds and feels and the best thing to do is learn both. I struggle with DDU .... to make it sound right the downs have to be rest strokes and I find it hard to do that without introducing huge amounts of tension. I literally can't do DDU and breath at the same time. DUDU not a problem, but it doesn't have "that sound" e.g. the power of George Shuffler or Clarence White.

Both Tony and Wyatt Rice seem to be genetically disposed to ripping out DDU at great speed...it's clearly just how they learned when they were little and their hands have grown doing that movement. When you look at Tony's unorthodox picking, you can usually find it's using that DDU movement for economy. For what it's worth, I see him as the pinnacle of bluegrass guitar as opposed to flatpicking. That will always be a tie between Doc and Norman for me

Can't really disagree with any of that.

roberty

Matt_McG said:

It's also worth checking out Molly Tuttle shredding the hell out White Freightliner using the same flat picking technique (and singing at the same time). 

She has alopecia which has been a hot topic of late https://www.mollytuttlemusic.com/alopeciaareata

She meets up with fans who also have it and they take selfies with their wigs off. It's really nice

Flatpicking is such a cool style, I'm really into it but I haven't learnt it really

BigPaulie

roberty said:

Matt_McG said:

It's also worth checking out Molly Tuttle shredding the hell out White Freightliner using the same flat picking technique (and singing at the same time). 

She has alopecia which has been a hot topic of late https://www.mollytuttlemusic.com/alopeciaareata

She meets up with fans who also have it and they take selfies with their wigs off. It's really nice

Flatpicking is such a cool style, I'm really into it but I haven't learnt it really

If she were a man with as much talent and charisma as she does, she'd be much more famous.

She is an absolute star in my opinion, and her visibility as someone with alopecia, and all the work she does for it only increases the respect I have for her. Can you tell I'm a fan?

I hope to see her live some day.

roberty

@BigPaulie I agree. I love her playing and everything that she's about

Rocker

Lewy said:

People tend to think the only way to do something intricate on acoustic is to fingerpick. Not so! The big difference is that flatpicking by its very nature is more linear/monophonic than fingerpicking and whilst you may think that would make it less self contained, it has a fundamental pulse that carries it through and makes it work. That hails directly from it's roots in the fiddle tradition. The pulse comes from a fairly strict adherence to the principles that you play down beats with a downstroke and up beats with an upstroke....perpetual down up down up down up ... and that means the beat is always emphasised.

Those two guys, impressive as they are, have very little actual music to offer.  Their playing, on those videos, is really all technique.  I would like to hear them playing a tune or two, something that will stick in the memory, something a bit looser and more improvised.  They have the talent so let them play something that sounds like it has a start, a middle and an end.

ArchtopDave

BigPaulie said:

roberty said:

Matt_McG said:

It's also worth checking out Molly Tuttle shredding the hell out White Freightliner using the same flat picking technique (and singing at the same time). 

She has alopecia which has been a hot topic of late https://www.mollytuttlemusic.com/alopeciaareata

She meets up with fans who also have it and they take selfies with their wigs off. It's really nice

Flatpicking is such a cool style, I'm really into it but I haven't learnt it really

If she were a man with as much talent and charisma as she does, she'd be much more famous.

She is an absolute star in my opinion, and her visibility as someone with alopecia, and all the work she does for it only increases the respect I have for her. Can you tell I'm a fan?

I hope to see her live some day.

Nell Bryden developed alopecia quite a few years ago, and wore a wig for several years. However, she decided to discard it something like 5 years ago. She's reasonably tall, and cuts an impressive sight, when you see her gigging.

roberty

@ArchtopDave going bald is hard enough for men, right?

Tannin

Lewy said:

People tend to think the only way to do something intricate on acoustic is to fingerpick. 

Only people who have no clue.

I was (not for the first time here) going to post that same clip that @Matt_McG posted but no need now. She's awesome! But there have been and are many, many other great flatpickers. 

(I flatpicked for many years and only switched to fingerpicking two or three years back. I'll probably never go back to flatpicking but that's not because I don't like it, it's just because I'm a much better fingerpicker.)

midiman1962

Interesting video - thanks for sharing 

Cryptid

Enjoyed that lesson, thanks for posting. Not much of a bluegrass guy myself but I do use some cross picking for hooks and fills, along with my strumming when accompanying vocal groups. Paying more attention to what I'm doing, it's all DUDU, hitting the 2 and 4 with a little more forearm to keep the feel of the backbeat. 

Rocker said:

Those two guys, impressive as they are, have very little actual music to offer.  Their playing, on those videos, is really all technique.  I would like to hear them playing a tune or two, something that will stick in the memory, something a bit looser and more improvised.  They have the talent so let them play something that sounds like it has a start, a middle and an end.

The trouble I have with bluegrass in general (outside of a song format) is its intrinsic incessant nature - a lot of it seems quite flat dynamically, no space or rest, and as you say, doesn't really go anywhere or develop. I find much of it a little soulless, especially when everyone seems to be trying to out play each other, and therefore quickly tire of listening to it. However, it is dance music after all, right?

It's a generalisation, of course, and I'm happy to accept my ignorance not having explored the genre in much depth. Molly Tuttle, for example, seems to have soul and a respect for 'weaving what the music demands'. 

I'm a big fan of Julian Lage and love the stuff he does with Chris Eldridge. For me it's refreshing to see the smooth beauty of cross picking employed in a freer setting outside the traditional bluegrass confines, with plenty of improvised development and each musician sensitively supporting each other rather than trying to out class. 



They do look like they're about to kiss at one point in that video  

Matt_McG

@Cryptid ;I think Julian Lage is an incredibly sensitive and creative musician whoever he is playing with. I love his duet album with Nels Cline, too.

fretmeister

bertie said:

fretmeister said:

Damn that first vid is banging.

I'm really going to have to look into this more.

there might be a Furch OM 33 in the offing......................... just what you need............ (if I can find an Atkin at the right ££)

Snappy name. Sounds like an engine part.

BigPaulie

Rocker said:

Those two guys, impressive as they are, have very little actual music to offer.  Their playing, on those videos, is really all technique.  I would like to hear them playing a tune or two, something that will stick in the memory, something a bit looser and more improvised.  They have the talent so let them play something that sounds like it has a start, a middle and an end.

I get what you're saying.

I prefer to listen to actual songs too. Fiddle tunes can be entertaining for a while, but the repetitive nature gets boring after a while. The concept of guitar competitions is entirely alien to me.

That said, the really great players are able to make the format interesting in almost any context. I never really get bored listening to Tony Rice, Molly Tuttle, Norman Blake, Ron Block or Kenny Smith etc.