Recommend me some scales to noodle in

personalnadir

I’m all about noodling, and recently that’s just been in C major. Before that it was all pentatonic.

The other night I switched back to the pentatonic and was struck by how my playing radically changed. 

That got me thinking: I should try other scales and chords and see what happens. However it’s always hard to figure out what the next steps are from the above.

Are there different scales that work well over the c major chords? Are there different chords the c major scale works over in interesting ways? Are there whole other scale and chord combos that people turn to for everyday use?

i’m referencing everything in regards to C for simplicity. I know I can move the root and play B major over the chords of B major, which is interesting in terms of getting out of ruts, but sonically sounds similar to me 

viz

personalnadir said:

I know I can move the root and play B major over the chords of B major, which is interesting in terms of getting out of ruts, but sonically sounds similar to me 

As it should. 

So after you’ve understood major, learn about minor, then mixolydian (major with a lowered 7th) and Dorian (minor with a raised 6th)

Then there’s a myriad of others to try but I’d say get those 4 understood first.

Understanding them is more important than being able to play them well, IMO, because music is as much about head and heart as it is about hands. 

equalsql

The Dimished scale, so tone - 1/2 tone steps, i.e.  C, D, Eb, F, F#, G#, A, B
It's really cool sounding.

digitalkettle

As @viz suggests, work through the major scale modes in order of 'usefulness'.
Subjective: major (ionian), minor (aeolian), mixolydian, dorian, phrygian, lydian, locrian (?)
I don't really work like this but I did slavishly put in the mode-hours when I was younger and more foolisher

Which leads to: what are you playing over?
You're going to need a sensible context to get proper benefit, e.g. Google for 'drone backing track'.

personalnadir

digitalkettle said:

As @viz suggests, work through the major scale modes in order of 'usefulness’

[….]

Which leads to: what are you playing over?
You're going to need a sensible context to get proper benefit, e.g. Google for 'drone backing track'.

good question! I tried putting some chords down on a looper, which exposed an issue. If I put down G, Dm, Am, C, then I the C Major and A Aeolian and B Locrian are all the same scale shape, just the root note moves. 

I’m assuming the chords for B Locrian should be in someway different to those of C Major to get the benefit? Or is it the case that I should be changing scale root with each chord? Or is it just down to how the scale is played in the different modes? 

I tried using iReal Pro, which has a couple of modal exercises with some spicier chords - which was interesting, but it sounded like a lot of those exercises are changing the key (the Dorian exercise has been F#m and Fm) 

digitalkettle

You can use a B Locrian shape/notes by all means...but if the tonal centre is C, you're playing C major (ionian mode).

C Ionian (natural major) - C D E F G A B - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
D Dorian - D E F G A B C - 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
E Phrygian - E F G A B C D - 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
F Lydian - F G A B C D E - 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
G Mixolydian - G A B C D E F - 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7
A Aeolian (natural minor) - A B C D E F G - 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
B Locrian - B C D E F G A - 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7

In strictly diatonic harmony, they all share the same chords...so stacking the 3rds to list the 7th chords:
Cmaj7 - C E G B
Dmin7 - D F A C
Emin7 - E G B D
Fmaj7 - F A C E
G7 - G B D F
Amin7 - A C E G
Bmin7b5 - B D F A

If you want to noodle B Locrian (not a great choice, imho), you need a B Locrian progression...erm...something like:
| Bm7b5 / / / | Bm7b5 / Am7 Cmaj7 |
Strong consonant chords in there but it leans heavily enough on the B to be Locrian.

digitalkettle

There are some folks around here with some proper schooling on this subject but this kind of thing might be enough to open some doors for you.

Beyond noodling, the best improv can come from:

• knowing the underlying key
• knowing the chords and understanding the extensions that you can imply, e.g. you see/hear an F but you can think Fmaj7#11
• thinking about themes/motifs/rhythmic ideas
• breathing

Playing modes over a simple drone (often very purposefully along a single string) can open your ear to their unique sounds.

stratman3142

This works for me, but I'm not sure if it's for everyone.

If you're playing over a C major type blues progression (for example), you could try alternating between C major pentatonic and C minor pentatonic.

Then try mixing the C major and C minor pentatonic together (in effect overlaid on top of each other). The combination gives mixture of C Mixolydian and C Dorian.

Then try throwing in a b5 as well.

Selecting notes and creating phrases from that palette of sounds gives loads of possibilities. It's an approach that I use a lot when jamming over a major blues.

personalnadir

Thanks, that’s all super helpful. I’ve just read this: 
https://www.fretjam.com/modal-chord-progressions.html

from that I guess it’s about creating the right progression for the mode.

HAL9000

I’m mainly a blues rock player and mostly self taught. Until recently I’ve never analysed what scales I use - I’ve just tried to play what, to my mind, sounds right. 

Analysing what I do, it seems I actually mix two scales - the minor blues scale and the mixolydian (not that I even knew what mixolydian was until earlier today!). 

Anyway, the point I’m making is that you don’t need to restrict yourself to just one scale or mode at a time. Find ways of mixing more than one. Almost certainly there will be some things that clash or jar somewhat, but just as likely you’ll discover phrases or licks that you might not otherwise have considered.

digitalkettle

personalnadir said:

Thanks, that’s all super helpful. I’ve just read this: 
https://www.fretjam.com/modal-chord-progressions.html

from that I guess it’s about creating the right progression for the mode.

Bit waffly...the examples are useful-ish though

stratman3142

HAL9000 said:

...Analysing what I do, it seems I actually mix two scales - the minor blues scale and the mixolydian (not that I even knew what mixolydian was until earlier today!). 

Which interestingly ends up with the same notes as I described in my earlier post for blues noodling.

So in C it's: C(1), D(2), Eb(b3), E(3), F(4), Gb(b5), G(5), A(6), Bb(b7)  

The way it evolved for me was as major pentatonic merged with minor pentatonic, with an added b5.  I'm old and the early rock solos I learned by ear largely pentatonic based. If fact I didn't really have a name for them at the time. Plus I probably got that bluesy Dorian sound from listening to Peter Frampton and the Mixolydian sound from Jeff Beck. Then I just stated to merge ideas/sounds together.

If I were to try to put a label on the group of notes now, I suppose it could be called either
Mixolydian with an added b3 and b5 (in my 'Jeff Beck' mindset)
or, Dorian with an added ma3 and b5 (in my 'Peter Frampton' mindset)

Tannin

@stratman3142  ;Wilf Smith calls this (or something very like it) "the swing scale". Essentially, it is (if my memory can be trusted) a major scale with a b7, and add on b3 and b5. I went looking for the video where he explains yesterday, intending to post it here, but couldn't find it. Like you, I came across it for myself, long before I discovered that there was a name for it. I frequently also play the natural (major) 7. 

(Wilf plays a style which is a very long way away from what I play, and probably what you play too, but that doesn't matter. He is, in his delightfully simple homespun way, an excellent teacher and a chording wizard. Recommended.)

digitalkettle

@stratman3142 ;So, add a few passing chromaticisms and all the notes are right...you just have to worry about playing them in the right order

stratman3142

Tannin said:

...I frequently also play the natural (major) 7...

Actually that's something I sometimes do on the 5 chord of a blue progression. So in the key of C, the 5 chord (G) has a B as it's 3rd. I think I'm probably hearing it as a part of a G arpeggio superimposed on top of the other notes I'm using.
 

Barney

Try flattening the 3rd of the major scale to give you melodic minor 

Sorry I didn't read the full post ....maybe try some arpeggios ....from the c major scale Cmaj7..Dm7 ..Em7 ect 

guitars4you

stratman3142 said:

This works for me, but I'm not sure if it's for everyone.

If you're playing over a C major type blues progression (for example), you could try alternating between C major pentatonic and C minor pentatonic.

Then try mixing the C major and C minor pentatonic together (in effect overlaid on top of each other). The combination gives mixture of C Mixolydian and C Dorian.

Then try throwing in a b5 as well.

Selecting notes and creating phrases from that palette of sounds gives loads of possibilities. It's an approach that I use a lot when jamming over a major blues.

that covers about 90 odd % of my playing/noodling/improvising - My dad was a decent tenor sax player - big band/jazz/swing/jump jive etc and he said that was the jist of his playing

kelpbeds

Altered is great fun over resolving dominant 7th chords.

stratman3142

guitars4you said:

stratman3142 said:

This works for me, but I'm not sure if it's for everyone.

If you're playing over a C major type blues progression (for example), you could try alternating between C major pentatonic and C minor pentatonic.

Then try mixing the C major and C minor pentatonic together (in effect overlaid on top of each other). The combination gives mixture of C Mixolydian and C Dorian.

Then try throwing in a b5 as well.

Selecting notes and creating phrases from that palette of sounds gives loads of possibilities. It's an approach that I use a lot when jamming over a major blues.

that covers about 90 odd % of my playing/noodling/improvising - My dad was a decent tenor sax player - big band/jazz/swing/jump jive etc and he said that was the jist of his playing

Coincidentally, Tim Pierce talks about something similar in today's live stream from about 1:58 to 4:40 (clip below). Except his example is in the key of A.

PAL

I don't think you should noodle in scales ! They are useful but it's worth playing outside a scale or key. We think too much about scale and modes but if you check out most good players they don't limit themselves in that way.

viz

Playing scales is like whisking an egg or chopping mushrooms. It’s good, professional chefs would say necessary, to be good at it. But the magic is in the omelette, not the chopped mushrooms.

I’m not that good at playing scales - I’ve never learned how to play them properly and don’t normally incorporate long scalar structures in my playing. Understanding the notes in a key or scale though, I’d say that’s pretty mandatory, even if it’s only a a tacit / experiential understanding.