On stage Cabs

Rkphilpot

Hi all
Im hoping you can help.
I'm in a three piece band that always mic everything up and put it all through the pa to create a nice mix. We also use IEMs so this helps us mix them too.
The bass player is changing his rig from his heavy 8x10 peavy rig to a modelling pedal (helix) straight into the pa. I use a 2x12 katana mic'd up into the pa.

My question is will the lack of his bass cabinet on stage affect the overall sound FOH? I'm worried you may just hear loads of guitar to the left and not much bass. Or is it just a case of turning down on stage and mixing the FOH to compensate? 

What if I went the same way and just DI'd my amp with no sound on stage, would the acoustic drums be overpowering or do we just turn them down at FOH?

I would try this out but he hasn't bought it yet as we're unsure what route to go.

This is all new but I like the idea of having less on stage as we jump around quite a bit.

Thanks all
Ross

firepaulmusic

I saw a great band at the Nantwich festival a few years ago and the bass player was doing just that. He had a powered cab facing back at him. Acoustic drums and the guitarist had a full valve rig and 2x12. The sound was great...

Roland

We’re assuming that the PA has the power to handle the bass. Let’s get that out of the way first. 

I find that a lot of bassists are too loud on stage. They’re on top of their rig, and don’t hear it clearly. Whereas out in the room it’s competing with the PA. So a bassist going straight to PA, with maybe a small backline, is a good idea in my book.

As @Danny1969 will tell you, there’s a dead area directly in front of the stage, between the PA columns. Lower frequencies, the ones you don’t hear through your IEMs, are reasonably non-directional, so anyone standing in this dead space should hear them. I’d be more worried about whether they will hear the upper bass frequencies, between say 500 and 1000 Hz, which give the bass guitar a lot of it’s character. 

The same is true for other instruments. In a small pub it’s generally not a problem. In larger spaces, such as a wedding venue, it can be. I use IEMs, and have a 1x12 facing me to provide some acoustic coupling with my guitar. The spill from that gives some guitar in the dead area. Our keyboard player just uses IEMs and the PA, and there’s a definite absence of keys in the dead area.

maltingsaudio

It really all depends on the type of venues you play. If it’s a proper venue with big front of house system then di everything and give yourself space and trust the engineer. If it’s a pub type gig then you are likely to get a big imbalance with di’d bass and loud guitar.

Done a few gigs recently where keepers have been involved for guitar and bass duties, whilst it made my job a lot easier to my ears the whole sound Lacked dynamics, I  expect the problem to be getting a great sound at low ish volumes which doesn’t translate to a great sound when pushed through a big PA, so when your programming test your sound at gig volumes .  

Rkphilpot

Thanks for the advice guys, I know what you mean about the bass frequencies through IEM's, especially as ours are only single driver. I like to feel the bass and I get that when he has a cab on stage.

Im going to try DI'ing my cab and having no volume on stage then seeing how dead that dead spot is right in front of the PA. I have a feeling in small venues it may sound rubbish right up front.

I guess we will just have to try everything and see what works, i appreciate your knowledge.

Ross

Rkphilpot

firepaulmusic said:

I saw a great band at the Nantwich festival a few years ago and the bass player was doing just that. He had a powered cab facing back at him. Acoustic drums and the guitarist had a full valve rig and 2x12. The sound was great...

Thats very reassuring, I wonder if its worth just having a 1x12 on stage anyway. Thank you

fretmeister

A fair amount of bassists are also using haptics with IEM.

Stuff like the BackBeat
https://getbackbeat.com/


Or an Eich Bassboard

https://www.eich-amps.com/en-US/bassboard-l

So they can still feel the bass.

I know a guy who plays theatre pits and his chair is on a Bassboard so he can feel everything and he's very impressed with it.

Rkphilpot

fretmeister said:

A fair amount of bassists are also using haptics with IEM.

Stuff like the BackBeat
https://getbackbeat.com/


Or an Eich Bassboard

https://www.eich-amps.com/en-US/bassboard-l

So they can still feel the bass.

I know a guy who plays theatre pits and his chair is on a Bassboard so he can feel everything and he's very impressed with it.

I had no idea this was even a thing, thats so cool, its mad how far tech has come in the last 20 years

fretmeister

It's quite amazing.

My mate reckons it has transformed theatre pit work. He used to use a tiny Phil Jones combo that had upwards firing cones and he said it was a great sound, but he couldn't feel anything. Then he had a head with a cab that was also a stool and that was better but it was very uncomfortable for a long show.

Now he can use the chair of his choice on the bassboard and he has his fretted, fretless and on some gigs a DB as well.
The music is on tablets and is midi sync'd so the pages turn for everyone at the right place.

He's mostly working in London and now gets annoyed if he goes somewhere else that he can't take the board!

bloodandtears

Same line up as you (as you may recall).. we don't have bass bins for our PA so the bass rig helps support the PA, so not really helpful to your question.. but regardless of how you go proceed, keep the guitar backline, it helps with guitar feedback..

Danny1969

Although I gig in one band that uses no kind of backline for anything I'm not convinced it has any advantage other than saving space in the van, which is why we do it. Oh and less to carry. It doesn't help with any audio issues because generally there isn't a problem there to begin with if people are sensible about their backline volume. 

At pub  / small club / wedding time venues it's better IMHO to have small backline amps including a small bass amp, all IEM's no wedges and then reinforce that with the PA. I was mixing a band last night at a well known wedding venue in Gloucester, typical stage and Funktion-One  house PA. The small amps the guitarists and bass player were using were no problem at all. Sounded great mic'ed up through the PA, as did the bass DI'ed. In this  scenerio there are other things that are far more of an issue ... drums bleeding into the vocal mics ... not enough dispersion pattern on the tops etc. 

I think sometimes we like to do things because it feels modern and it gives us a chance to buy more gear but I still think small amps - reinforced with PA is far better than any modelled solution for the majority of covers bands. For  heavier sounds then modelling might be more the way to go. 
This isn't because of an age thing, I like tech and we were on a digital desk and IEM's back in 2008. That solved a whole bunch of issues. I don't think the direct - no cab - modelled thing really helps anything. 

Rkphilpot

bloodandtears said:

Same line up as you (as you may recall).. we don't have bass bins for our PA so the bass rig helps support the PA, so not really helpful to your question.. but regardless of how you go proceed, keep the guitar backline, it helps with guitar feedback..

Yes!! Thats a point i hadnt considered at all, I love manipulating feedback. Thank you.

Rkphilpot

Danny1969 said:

Although I gig in one band that uses no kind of backline for anything I'm not convinced it has any advantage other than saving space in the van, which is why we do it. Oh and less to carry. It doesn't help with any audio issues because generally there isn't a problem there to begin with if people are sensible about their backline volume. 

At pub  / small club / wedding time venues it's better IMHO to have small backline amps including a small bass amp, all IEM's no wedges and then reinforce that with the PA. I was mixing a band last night at a well known wedding venue in Gloucester, typical stage and Funktion-One  house PA. The small amps the guitarists and bass player were using were no problem at all. Sounded great mic'ed up through the PA, as did the bass DI'ed. In this  scenerio there are other things that are far more of an issue ... drums bleeding into the vocal mics ... not enough dispersion pattern on the tops etc. 

I think sometimes we like to do things because it feels modern and it gives us a chance to buy more gear but I still think small amps - reinforced with PA is far better than any modelled solution for the majority of covers bands. For  heavier sounds then modelling might be more the way to go. 
This isn't because of an age thing, I like tech and we were on a digital desk and IEM's back in 2008. That solved a whole bunch of issues. I don't think the direct - no cab - modelled thing really helps anything. 

Thanks Danny, theres some great logic and experience in here, I appreciate your time spent writing that response.

Ross

roberty

Nothing worse than massive indistinct boomy bass at a gig swamping over everything