New (Very Cheap) Guitar Day

bertie

guitarjack66 said:

bertie said:

bluecat said:

I can see it fine Bertie ,must be something wrong with your settings mate .what can you buy for £78. ?who knows.

not at all,  I just dont have an imgur account  

You dont need one,I dont have one either.

hmm odd, cos I  can never see any pics that are links to being hosted on imgur  -  only if the pics are embedded  here

tomatos tomatos 

guitarjack66

bertie said:

guitarjack66 said:

bertie said:

bluecat said:

I can see it fine Bertie ,must be something wrong with your settings mate .what can you buy for £78. ?who knows.

not at all,  I just dont have an imgur account  

You dont need one,I dont have one either.

hmm odd, cos I  can never see any pics that are links to being hosted on imgur  -  only if the pics are embedded  here

tomatos tomatos 

Like I say,I cant upload on imgur on mobile,but I can still see the photos when I click on the link. I think it may be a settings or permission problem for you. Bloody mobile phones!

bertie

guitarjack66 said:

Like I say,I cant upload on imgur on mobile,but I can still see the photos when I click on the link. I think it may be a settings or permission problem for you. Bloody mobile phones!

<

I only ever use a laptop for WWW  -  when I click on a link all I get is a blank/black screen, 

......................... Im not overly worried

guitarjack66

Played my guitar again for a while but the string height is much higher than I originally realised. It will need a set up and string change before I can give a detailed post on how it feels and sounds. It still sounds fine but the string height is a problem for me given that I aeem to have a lighter touch,probably due to mostly playing liggt strings I reckon. Just factor in a set up to your price.

BillDL

As well as normally having higher action on acoustics than you have on electrics, most lower and mid-priced acoustic guitars come with higher action than most people feel is comfortable.  I suppose they are erring on the side of safety to some extent, but probably the main reason is that fine tuning the setup on an acoustic guitar is time consuming and the labour costs would increase the price.  As you say, unless you have the tools and experience to set the neck relief with the truss rod, sand off a small amount accurately from the bottom of the saddle, and cut the nut slots to the optimum depth, you need to factor a setup into your cost.

There is also the aspect that a higher action will hide any imperfections with fret heights. This has always been a common practice, but these days the fretting of even budget guitars is much more consistent and of higher standard than it used to be and there shouldn't be as much need to do this.  I would guess that on production line budget guitars these days the frets are probably pressed in by a machine that seats them all at the same time and with the same pressure rather than being pressed (or hammered) into the slots one at a time as would have been done before everything became so hightly automated and accurate.

If you look at the action of a new Martin acoustic guitar set up in their factory it's invariably very high for people that have been used to playing electric guitars exclusively and even be uncomfortably high for some acoustic players, especially if it is strung with 13s. I don't know their "factory specs", and it possibly varies depending on the guitar type, but I would guess that they probably aim for an action of 7/64" (2.8mm) on the low E at the 12th fret and 5/64" (2mm) on the high E, whereas an electric guitar would generally be somewhere around 2mm down to 1.6mm.  It's amazing the difference in feel just under 1mm can make.  The neck relief on most acoustic guitars needs to be a little greater than an electric guitar, so it might be 0.012" on a Martin as opposed to 0.008 to 0.010" on an electric guitar.

The temptation is to take a lot of height from the underside of the saddle and it ends up too low and with insufficient string breakover angle where it can end up sounding clanky.  It's a very fine balance between playing comfort and as full a sound as possible on an acoustic.

Do you have the proper tools to do your own acoustic setups?

Tannin

Martin factory specs are as @BillDL says: 2.8mm bass and 2.0mm treble. I had a bit of a look around for other manufacturers' numbers and didn't find anything, but most will be pretty close to the same as that.  

guitarjack66

BillDL said:

As well as normally having higher action on acoustics than you have on electrics, most lower and mid-priced acoustic guitars come with higher action than most people feel is comfortable.  I suppose they are erring on the side of safety to some extent, but probably the main reason is that fine tuning the setup on an acoustic guitar is time consuming and the labour costs would increase the price.  As you say, unless you have the tools and experience to set the neck relief with the truss rod, sand off a small amount accurately from the bottom of the saddle, and cut the nut slots to the optimum depth, you need to factor a setup into your cost.

There is also the aspect that a higher action will hide any imperfections with fret heights. This has always been a common practice, but these days the fretting of even budget guitars is much more consistent and of higher standard than it used to be and there shouldn't be as much need to do this.  I would guess that on production line budget guitars these days the frets are probably pressed in by a machine that seats them all at the same time and with the same pressure rather than being pressed (or hammered) into the slots one at a time as would have been done before everything became so hightly automated and accurate.

If you look at the action of a new Martin acoustic guitar set up in their factory it's invariably very high for people that have been used to playing electric guitars exclusively and even be uncomfortably high for some acoustic players, especially if it is strung with 13s. I don't know their "factory specs", and it possibly varies depending on the guitar type, but I would guess that they probably aim for an action of 7/64" (2.8mm) on the low E at the 12th fret and 5/64" (2mm) on the high E, whereas an electric guitar would generally be somewhere around 2mm down to 1.6mm.  It's amazing the difference in feel just under 1mm can make.  The neck relief on most acoustic guitars needs to be a little greater than an electric guitar, so it might be 0.012" on a Martin as opposed to 0.008 to 0.010" on an electric guitar.

The temptation is to take a lot of height from the underside of the saddle and it ends up too low and with insufficient string breakover angle where it can end up sounding clanky.  It's a very fine balance between playing comfort and as full a sound as possible on an acoustic.

Do you have the proper tools to do your own acoustic setups?

No,I have neither the tools nor space let alone the experience. String changing is the limit of my repair experience. I tend to look after my guitars,regardless of their value so a more professional set up is the norm for me.

DavidR

Over the years, as an ordinary player its not so difficult to learn to adjust action guitarjack. Lots of great YouTube videos on this. Then just keep doing it. It is possible to teach yourself how to do it if you're a bit handy. Or watch your luthier or setup guy. Most people love showing off! 

Neck relief - easy and reversible, just need an Allen key and string height measure ruler and suss out which way to turn. Bridge saddle - again easy. Measure with string height ruler, draw line on bottom of bridge saddle and sand down with sandpaper and sanding block. Or table! Take it down slowly in increments as you learn but, if you mess up, get another saddle and start again. An opportunity to change saddle too to e.g. bone. Nut - a bit more dodgy because nuts, though not impossible for the mere enthusiast, are more difficult to swap in and out. You'll definitely need proper files and, in my experience, these aren't always on Amazon and have to be sourced from a more specialist guitar stockist. Do it very very slowly, I just do 5 filing actions per slot  at a time and then restring and test play and then +/- repeat. Some experience essential. (But you'll only get that by having a go!)

Fretwork will require a luthier if you're just a keen player IMO. Other bigger things, like a twisted neck or a bowed up top are very rare but are major luthier jobs. And expensive.

A lot of action adjustment is just knowledge of how a guitar works and what actually constitutes the components of action. Especially really getting an understanding of neck relief. Getting it all eventually right is very satisfying.

Top tips - sight down a fretboard from the head end to look at general action and neck relief. Put the guitar on a stand and then stand above it and look down the fretboard from this compressed perspective. You can actually see things like neck relief, straightness and overall string height. Make changes slowly and step by step.

Tannin

Good advice from @DavidR (as usual). I follow a mid-way path though. Happy to adjust the neck relief, and although I 've never done it I don't rule out adjusting a saddle one day, but I leave the nut alone. For one thing, I don't have the tools and they are quite expensive.

For another reason, it gives me an excuse to take the guitar into Paul, who will very likely do a better job than I can, who has a vast wealth of experience and is happy to pass bits of it on, and who charges very little for it. It also reminds him that I exist and I'm now up to #3 on his waiting list for a new guitar, and that it's nearly time to start looking around for the woods. (I was #5 when I put my deposit down. Slowly, slowly he will get around to my build.)

guitarjack66

DavidR said:

Over the years, as an ordinary player its not so difficult to learn to adjust action guitarjack. Lots of great YouTube videos on this. Then just keep doing it. It is possible to teach yourself how to do it if you're a bit handy. Or watch your luthier or setup guy. Most people love showing off! 

Neck relief - easy and reversible, just need an Allen key and string height measure ruler and suss out which way to turn. Bridge saddle - again easy. Measure with string height ruler, draw line on bottom of bridge saddle and sand down with sandpaper and sanding block. Or table! Take it down slowly in increments as you learn but, if you mess up, get another saddle and start again. An opportunity to change saddle too to e.g. bone. Nut - a bit more dodgy because nuts, though not impossible for the mere enthusiast, are more difficult to swap in and out. You'll definitely need proper files and, in my experience, these aren't always on Amazon and have to be sourced from a more specialist guitar stockist. Do it very very slowly, I just do 5 filing actions per slot  at a time and then restring and test play and then +/- repeat. Some experience essential. (But you'll only get that by having a go!)

Fretwork will require a luthier if you're just a keen player IMO. Other bigger things, like a twisted neck or a bowed up top are very rare but are major luthier jobs. And expensive.

A lot of action adjustment is just knowledge of how a guitar works and what actually constitutes the components of action. Especially really getting an understanding of neck relief. Getting it all eventually right is very satisfying.

Top tips - sight down a fretboard from the head end to look at general action and neck relief. Put the guitar on a stand and then stand above it and look down the fretboard from this compressed perspective. You can actually see things like neck relief, straightness and overall string height. Make changes slowly and step by step.

Thanks for this. But,you mention the word 'handy' which I am unfortunately not at. I am very much an 'Unhandy Jack.'

BillDL

Even though you might never be inclined to do a setup on your guitar I think you might find the following video of interest as it explains the relationships between the different parts that can be adjusted or may need some remedy.

BillDL

Is your guitar the Harley Benton CG-45E?
https://www.thomann.de/gb/harley_benton_cg_45e_natural.htm
It's remarkable what you can get for a minimum outlay these days.  Body bound back and front, bound neck, and under-saddle pickup and preamp for £66.  Who cares if it is laminated mahogany rather than solid woods, or if the fretboard is "roseacer" (heat-treated very hard maple) rather than pitted sub-standard rosewood, or if the rosette is a sticker, it's what it sounds like and feels like that counts the most.  I do happen to think it's a really nice looking wee guitar.

Mellish

@guitarjack66 ; I wouldn't recommend that you attempt your very first setup on a guitar you care about.

Yes, it isn't difficult but, with respect, you could still mess it up, involving more money than a setup done by a good tech.

If you want to have a go, there's plenty of beat up examples in s/h shops to have a go at, get your confidence going and *then* (if you want) try to do a setup on a guitar you care about  

Mellish

That video posted by @BillDL, though, explains very well the steps involved  

guitarjack66

BillDL said:

Is your guitar the Harley Benton CG-45E?
https://www.thomann.de/gb/harley_benton_cg_45e_natural.htm
It's remarkable what you can get for a minimum outlay these days.  Body bound back and front, bound neck, and under-saddle pickup and preamp for £66.  Who cares if it is laminated mahogany rather than solid woods, or if the fretboard is "roseacer" (heat-treated very hard maple) rather than pitted sub-standard rosewood, or if the rosette is a sticker, it's what it sounds like and feels like that counts the most.  I do happen to think it's a really nice looking wee guitar.

That's the baby,Bill. Well worth less than 80 pounds stirling all in.

bertie

Thomann said:

• String gauges: .010 "- .047"

wow - that may account why the action is a bit higher 

guitarjack66

bertie said:

Thomann said:

• String gauges: .010 "- .047"

wow - that may account why the action is a bit higher 

Funnily enough,I thought this exact thought today while musing over the set up problems. I had a Yamaha APX 3/4 sized guitar and got my tech to set it up. He wouldn't let me put 10s on them and insisted I keep the 11s or 12s gauge on them. I recalled this today once again. I have learned a lot from my tech so this opened my eyes on string tension and specs.

ToneControl

£74
That was about the price of the cheapest imported K guitars in 1980-1982

To add perspective, I had a one week summer job on £1 an hour in 1983

bertie

guitarjack66 said:

bertie said:

Thomann said:

• String gauges: .010 "- .047"

wow - that may account why the action is a bit higher 

Funnily enough,I thought this exact thought today while musing over the set up problems. I had a Yamaha APX 3/4 sized guitar and got my tech to set it up. He wouldn't let me put 10s on them and insisted I keep the 11s or 12s gauge on them. I recalled this today once again. I have learned a lot from my tech so this opened my eyes on string tension and specs.

lower gauge = lower tension = bigger amplitude