Why do acoustic guitars sound so bad live?

Teacherphil

So I've just been to see some live music. A typical acoustic covers thing but it got me thinking. I've never heard a decent acoustic guitar tone through a PA system. They sound awful. Is it compression? They always sound really weirdly percussive. What's going on?

Winny_Pooh

Undersaddle piezo pickups direct sound rubbish.

Magnetics sounds better as do soundboard or bridgeplate transducers.

Lewy

There’s no need for them to sound rubbish these days from a technological perspective, especially with the new generation of IR-based preamps. It’s more that a lot of people out there plugging in don’t really know what a good acoustic sound is  -they think what they’ve dialled in is fine. 

artiebear

Lewy said:

There’s no need for them to sound rubbish these days from a technological perspective, especially with the new generation of IR-based preamps. It’s more that a lot of people out there plugging in don’t really know what a good acoustic sound is  -they think what they’ve dialled in is fine. 

Even a proper under saddle / mic system can sound great. It depends upon a) the system and, very importantly b) the sound man.  

Roland

Where to start on this? The first thing to say is that there are many different acoustic guitar sounds, from the tinkly EQd-to-death sound on many records, to the booming large bodied guitars which were built for their un-amplified volume. Then there’s the player’s technique. 

The playing style which many people learn works well in a domestic room or recording studio. If you’re busking in the street then you’re playing for a different projection. Hitting the guitar harder for street volume will lose some of the dynamics, which is effectively compression.

The impact of piezos, microphones, and other pickups has been mentioned. The expensive ones can sound very realistic. On the other hand I wouldn’t take my expensive acoustic to a gig, I’d use the cheaper one, and I guess quite a few players would do the same.

Then we get to the soundman. He’s got quite a lot to deal with. EQing the sound to fit in a mix with voices and other instruments. The guitar was built to give a balanced frequency response at room volume. The Fletcher Munson effect means that the balance isn’t there at 500w, and has to be EQd back in. Selected frequencies and their harmonics may need cutting to avoid feedback. Many simple desks cut out wider frequency bands than you’d like. The soundman may well use compression to try to keep the guitar volume consistent. Maybe keeping the bite of the attack, but reducing the sustain to contain bass boom.

thecolourbox

I know what you mean, I always think the acoustic guitar has the biggest difference between sound at home and sound on stage of pretty much anything. I quite like the sound of acoustic guitars in the room but have only heard a nice live time once or twice in person ( Laura Marling springs to mind). Obviously it's different with a studio style live recording.

I think it's something inherent with acoustic guitars which others will be able to explain better I'm sure. But I also think it's how they are played. In person in a quiet environment it's much more likely that you'll pay with bigger dynamics and more deftness of touch. In a loud room is much harder to hear yourself doing that so people tend to bash it out with more strumming on the beat and then bashing it even louder between singing lines.

Also I findi don't like the kinds of acoustic performers that largely play in pubs and clubs or in beer garden type events. Mostly they are people who use the guitar as tuned percussion and therefore put very little musical interest into their playing, and largely don't know how to make the instrument itself sound any better. 

BillDL

thecolourbox said:

Also I find i don't like the kinds of acoustic performers that largely play in pubs and clubs or in beer garden type events. Mostly they are people who use the guitar as tuned percussion and therefore put very little musical interest into their playing, and largely don't know how to make the instrument itself sound any better. 

I immediately visualised a "Crossroads" type of guitar duel comprising Ed Sheeran vs John Denver.

TheBigDipper

I think Laura Marling is a very fine guitarist as well as a singer/songwriter. She always gets a good sound solo (and plays a few differently voiced guitars), but her acoustic sound with a band is just as good. 

I'm with @thecolourbox . Most singer/guitarists in pubs don't seem to understand or care. 

Every guitar has a sweet volume spot for tone. My Brook Taw is best when struck lightly and the top sings. Play it harder to get more volume and it just sounds ordinary. My L'Arrivee can take being thumped but sounds poor when played lightly. So… 

Tannin

Acoustic guitars sound bad live because most of the people playing them are electric players thinking that they can play acoustic.

It's a different instrument.

Same thing with bass: just because you can play an electric guitar, you are not god and don't think you can play a bass, a cello, or an acoustic guitar without actually studying it and spending the time it takes to get a good sound.

Acoustic guitars can and do sound fantastic live. But it takes work. And a good sound engineer who actually understands the instrument.

Cirrus

Tannin said:

Acoustic guitars sound bad live because most of the people playing them are electric players thinking that they can play acoustic.

It's a different instrument.

Yeah, I used to get quite frustrated when my band did "acoustic slots" - what that meant in practice was that the other guys did exactly what they always do, and I had to totally re-invent myself with new parts that'd work on an acoustic.

ICBM

I think a big problem is that now, a lot of sound engineers think that the 'classic' Takamine-type electro-acoustic sound is what an acoustic guitar is *meant* to sound like, so even when presented with something which inherently sounds better, they try to EQ it so it has that same thin, hollow tone with way too much string attack, top-end and body boom.

bertie

ICBM said:

I think a big problem is that now, a lot of sound engineers think that the 'classic' Takamine-type electro-acoustic sound is what an acoustic guitar is *meant* to sound like, 

KILL THEM WITH FIRE

malcolmkindness

There's really no reason why an acoustic guitar should sound bad on stage, it just requires a little work.
I spent 4 months in Lanzarote this winter, playing and singing in several hotel complexes and got many compliments on my guitar sound. I was using an L R Baggs sound hole pickup plugged directly into the house PA on every occasion. A sound engineer set things up once for each venue, I took a photo of the desk settings and replicated them each time.
I'm old enough to remember when all we had to work with was an SM57 for the guitar and an SM58 for the vocal, things are so much easier now.

ICBM

malcolmkindness said:

I'm old enough to remember when all we had to work with was an SM57 for the guitar and an SM58 for the vocal, things are so much easier now.

But not better .

An SM57 - or even a 58 - in front of the guitar still sounds better than almost any pickup system. The problem is needing to keep very still when playing.

bertie

57 and 58 are the same capsule anyway arent they ?  

as mrs bert would say "SM58,  the landrover of mics "

Mellish

I remember in the early 60s. Most acoustic guitarists didn't have Gibson or Martin.

If you had the money, you could go down to London and buy such guitars but most couldn't afford it. 

Eko made a perfectly good acoustic IIRC. But today there's so much choice.

Sorry, just wandering down Memory Lane  

Danny1969

One of the problems with acoustics is the sound you want isn't on the guitar, it's produced about 20 to 30cm away so putting any kind of transducer on the actual wood won't do the trick. It's the same issue with drums, mic them too mic and you just get a bok kind of sound. Course with drums you have a lot of good stuff in the overheads so it's not as bad. 

If you look at some old Eagles videos they often had mics on the vocal mic stand set much lower to pick up the acoustic guitar and banjo. As they were tied to the mic for vocals this worked ok. Certainly worth trying with on quieter stages. 

ICBM

bertie said:

57 and 58 are the same capsule anyway arent they ?

Yes, same capsule. The 58’s pop shield takes a little top-end off, but not that much.

crunchman

The latest digital trickery does make a difference.  Even something like the TC BodyRez, which you can get for £50 or £60 second hand, does improve things quite a lot.  A dedicated IR pedal is likely to be better, but is more complex.

malcolmkindness

ICBM said:

malcolmkindness said:

I'm old enough to remember when all we had to work with was an SM57 for the guitar and an SM58 for the vocal, things are so much easier now.

But not better .

An SM57 - or even a 58 - in front of the guitar still sounds better than almost any pickup system. The problem is needing to keep very still when playing.

Mmm, that's probably a matter of opinion. The most natural sound would be obtained with a good condenser mic about 18" from the guitar, but then you run into feedback issues and honestly, the audience doesn't really care about hi fidelity if the sound is fairly good and they like your music. This has always been my experience. 

ICBM

malcolmkindness said:

Mmm, that's probably a matter of opinion. The most natural sound would be obtained with a good condenser mic about 18" from the guitar, but then you run into feedback issues and honestly, the audience doesn't really care about hi fidelity if the sound is fairly good and they like your music. This has always been my experience. 

Certainly a studio-quality condenser at the proper distance is even better - but my point is simply that any ordinary dynamic mic in front of the guitar is better-sounding than almost any pickup system inside it, no matter how sophisticated. The problems are not so much to do with how good the mic is, but the other stuff that goes with having a mic in a position where you can't move without the sound changing, and where it can easily pick up things you don't want (including feedback).

I do agree that the audience doesn't really care though - although a badly EQ'd piezo pickup can actually make a good number of them wince .

I know both these things from practical experience .