Plethora X3

Kebabkid

For me, those insert loop/fx loop omissions are BIG limitations, which is a great shame. Some more things that have come up: - 

• No save option - whatever your last change, that's what it will recall on that particular board. So, if you want more than one pedal selection for a particular board, you have to leave it set up that way before you move on so when you return to it, it's as you require it
• If you're using the looper, if you switch to another board, the looper turns off. Therefore, that limits you to 2 effects when using the looper
• The supplied power supply is 600 mA, which is quite high, so limited when it comes to using other power supplies

TheBigDipper

english_bob said:

handsomerik said:

<snip> 

This. I get that making it smaller than the X5 means there wasn't room for a dedicated set of jacks for an insert loop, but I completely agree that an effects unit designed to provide more than one effect at a time, but that can't be used as a standalone multi-fx is hamstrung by being stuck in one place in the signal chain.

How many guitarists really play in stereo anyway? I get that it's nice to have for studio recording (how many guitarists regularly do that either?) but the reality for most of us is mono.

I think there's room in the marketplace for two versions of the X3. One, like this, with MIDI in/thru. The other might be to swap the MIDI connections for an effects loop. The current version will allow expression control using an expression pedal sending MIDI from a control device - but not just by connecting an expression pedal, obv. 

I don't think many guitarists play in stereo. Lot's of keyboard players do, though, and I can see this sitting on top of lots of keyboards and using the Hotnobz feature to twiddle in realtime as they play. 

TBH, I've never thought TC was trying to compete with products like the HX FX. The thrust has always seemed to be a convenient place to run your TC pedal algorithms from a smaller footprint for those who like TC sounds. That makes it unsuitable for lots of people who are well-served anyway. There seems to be a few people running an X5 as an add-on to their Helix, sending it MIDI from the Command Center, just because they prefer some of those sounds to the Line 6 offerings. Maybe they'll be swapping and selling... 

english_bob

TheBigDipper said:

I think there's room in the marketplace for two versions of the X3. One, like this, with MIDI in/thru. The other might be to swap the MIDI connections for an effects loop. The current version will allow expression control using an expression pedal sending MIDI from a control device - but not just by connecting an expression pedal, obv. 

I think that would probably be the kiss of death to the product- it would get confusing. Plus there's all the players who need both the MIDI and the insert loop. 

I think the obvious solution- although not one they could implement here without going right back to the drawing board- is to have connections on more than one side of the pedal. HX Stomp does this, so do the Boss xx-200 series pedals and the big GFI pedals (Synesthesia, Specular Tempus). It doesn't look quite as nice in photos but it gets maximum functionality out of a little box.

TheBigDipper

english_bob said:

TheBigDipper said:

<snip>

I think that would probably be the kiss of death to the product- it would get confusing. Plus there's all the players who need both the MIDI and the insert loop. 

I think the obvious solution- although not one they could implement here without going right back to the drawing board- is to have connections on more than one side of the pedal. HX Stomp does this, so do the Boss xx-200 series pedals and the big GFI pedals (Synesthesia, Specular Tempus). It doesn't look quite as nice in photos but it gets maximum functionality out of a little box.

What, like me, you mean? I've got an X5, so I have MIDI, the FX Loop and an expression pedal insert. I guess they'd join me with one of those. 3 effect slots isn't much if you're looking to do it all with one pedal. 

I totally take your point about marketplace confusion. You might be correct.

Anyway, either the X3 will be successful or it won't. People already happily ensconced in the TC world will find it more appealing than people in the Line 6 world, for instance.

They're actually addressing different needs and offering market choice - which I guess is a good thing, no? 

EricTheWeary

Last time I gigged it was guitar-tuner-overdrive-modulation-2xdelay-reverb-amp. 
I think a lot of people would have variations of that kind of thing and an X3 could potentially replace 5 of the things in my list plus give me additional sounds. I am in the target audience I think. 
Having MIDI on a product like this feels like it is catering to a vocal minority in terms of guitarists although as someone said this may well find its way into a lot of keyboard,etc, set ups. 
20 years ago I would have walked barefoot over broken glass for one of these. 

thecolourbox

I have the X5, but I've only used it at home so this may be an issue I'm inventing. But I'm assuming that little toggle switch thing to flick between boards is not brilliant in a live situation, so would be even worse if you're only able to host three effects as you might need more boards set up if you want to use various settings or toneprints of the pedals

EricTheWeary

thecolourbox said:

I have the X5, but I've only used it at home so this may be an issue I'm inventing. But I'm assuming that little toggle switch thing to flick between boards is not brilliant in a live situation, so would be even worse if you're only able to host three effects as you might need more boards set up if you want to use various settings or toneprints of the pedals

I think you can scroll through the boards if you hit two pedals at once? Without rewatching a video I might be making that up. 
I guess for live use you might need that bit of bending down/ faffing between songs. 

thecolourbox

EricTheWeary said:

thecolourbox said:

I have the X5, but I've only used it at home so this may be an issue I'm inventing. But I'm assuming that little toggle switch thing to flick between boards is not brilliant in a live situation, so would be even worse if you're only able to host three effects as you might need more boards set up if you want to use various settings or toneprints of the pedals

I think you can scroll through the boards if you hit two pedals at once? Without rewatching a video I might be making that up. 
I guess for live use you might need that bit of bending down/ faffing between songs. 

That might be the case to be fair, I don't recall there being much of a manual, just an instruction to watch videos which I couldn't be arsed to do I'm not a visual learner, that's my excuse

FWIW the x5 sounds nice, I can imagine there are limitations when not just using it at home but one of those (space it takes up if you need it on the floor) is mitigated by this smaller size

CaseOfAce

There's a 1 to 2 second lag changing banks on the Plethora X5...

Kebabkid

CaseOfAce said:

There's a 1 to 2 second lag changing banks on the Plethora X5...

Wasn't that the case with the older TC Nova? You'd think they'd have sorted that out.

I'm pretty sure now that the X3 (or X5) aren't for me but I'll be interested to see comments from anyone here who goes for one and how it's working out.

Close but no Cigar, TC.

thecolourbox

I suppose though how often would you be changing banks/boards during a song? There's no delay switching stuff on and off within the board that I'm aware of?

CaseOfAce

thecolourbox said:

I suppose though how often would you be changing banks/boards during a song? There's no delay switching stuff on and off within the board that I'm aware of?

Correct - the effects switching within a bank is seamless.
BUT say .. you might want to have a separate bank of effects based on genre - jazz, rock, blues, metal etc... OR even a bank per song if you are doing an effects heavy set.

Rather thank flicking the toggle switch on the unit to change banks this still involves (accurately)
1) Pressing down on 2 buttons simultaneously 
2) going up or down a bank using another button
3) selecting the bank
4) and wait whilst the bank changes...and hoping you've got it right first time

In a live situation with the pressure on and a fast moving setlist...

thecolourbox

Do any other multi effects pedals like this do that any better? I have an HX Effects and that's a pain in the arse as well

TimmyO

thecolourbox said:

Do any other multi effects pedals like this do that any better? I have an HX Effects and that's a pain in the arse as well

On the HX FX you can literally just have one press to go to the next patch - what would better look like? 

thecolourbox

TimmyO said:

thecolourbox said:

Do any other multi effects pedals like this do that any better? I have an HX Effects and that's a pain in the arse as well

On the HX FX you can literally just have one press to go to the next patch - what would better look like? 

I'm not sure that's the case in Stomp mode, which is the equivalent to what the Plethora is? Could be wrong to be fair, but it's felt more of a drag than that so could be user error

Jota

I just noticed the MIDI In is just to change pedalboards and there's no expression pedal input...

This could be a great companion to a HX Stomp. Same size and frees up 3 blocks or heavy DSP effects like reverb and delay to use heavy DSP amps like the Princeton and an IR.

TheBigDipper

Kebabkid said:

CaseOfAce said:

There's a 1 to 2 second lag changing banks on the Plethora X5...

Wasn't that the case with the older TC Nova? You'd think they'd have sorted that out.

I'm pretty sure now that the X3 (or X5) aren't for me but I'll be interested to see comments from anyone here who goes for one and how it's working out.

Close but no Cigar, TC.

Let me. I've owned my X5 since October last year and sold an HX FX because I prefer it. TC algorithms are much nicer to my ears than Line 6 ones. I run the guitar into an analogue compressor. There are analogue drive pedals and a volume pedal in the FX Loop of the X5 - allowing me to change where they sit in the signal chain and to bring them in or out of the path - and finally I run the X5 output into the guitar input of a clean amp. I don't own any amps with effects loops any more, but it also worked fine with one when I did. 

Changing boards is like changing presets on an HX FX. It's a reload of the single DSP chip. With the current firmware release it's taking as long as my HX FX did, so not fast enough for seamless switching if you're actually playing. You need a quaver rest in the music to get it done. You can scroll up/down between boards by tapping switches 1&2 or 4&5 simultaneously. MIDI will select any board, not just the next/previous. I don't change boards mid-song myself. 

If you just want to turn a pedal on/off you tap the switch and it's instantaneous. That can be done using MIDI, so one MIDI controller press could change the status of all 5 pedals on the board. If you turn on Hotknobz, you can twiddle knobs manually to change parameter values as you play, just like on a standard pedal (think Ed O'Brien), or use MIDI or an expression pedal or a Mash switch to do it. In effect, with a MIDI controller, you can change boards, turn 5 pedals on/off and alter live pedal parameters with one MIDI controller switch press. Similar functionality as Snapshots on the HX FX, but using a different mechanism - and it does need a MIDI controller to trigger it, which is enough to qualify it out for many people. Those who have a MIDI controller already for other things might love it.

There are plenty of X5 users running a Line 6 product and using Command Center MIDI to control the X5. If they want an authentic Hall of Fame reverb, Flashback delay or whatever else they like in the TC Toneprint pedal portfolio, there's nowhere else they can get the genuine article - and they do sound great. 

Most people though, most of the time, including me, use it as if it was 5 pedals in one box and tap dance to turn the effects on and off. It's easy, feels much more like a set of pedals than an MFX unit, sounds great and encourages more playing, more knob twiddling/experimentation and less editing/programming. 

Hope that helps a bit... If not, ask me a question and I'll happily answer from my own experience if I can.

CaseOfAce

Most people though, most of the time, including me, use it as if it was 5 pedals in one box and tap dance to turn the effects on and off. It's easy, feels much more like a set of pedals than an MFX unit, sounds great and encourages more playing, more knob twiddling/experimentation and less editing/programming. 

Hope that helps a bit... If not, ask me a question and I'll happily answer from my own experience if I can.

But if you are going to use it like that then you might as well buy 5 separate TC Electronics pedals and put them on a board? with the added ease of use / extra knob and  better quality effect? It doesn't work out a whole load more cost wise?

The ability to have different banks of 5 pedals with different settings is a major selling point of the unit - it should be seamless to switch between them - but it isn't. It's no issue at home - but live...

I was using a 5 pedal Yamaha MFC06 midi foot controller with an FX500 rack unit (like Ed O' Brien/Radiohead) and a JC 120 back in 1991.
It seems in the 30 years subsequently multi effects tech has barely moved on.

Which is why when people ask what's the best / easiest unit for live use, people still recommend Boss ME-50s and the like on here!

TimmyO

thecolourbox said:

TimmyO said:

thecolourbox said:

Do any other multi effects pedals like this do that any better? I have an HX Effects and that's a pain in the arse as well

On the HX FX you can literally just have one press to go to the next patch - what would better look like? 

I'm not sure that's the case in Stomp mode, which is the equivalent to what the Plethora is? Could be wrong to be fair, but it's felt more of a drag than that so could be user error

There's a global setting to make Stomp mode be 4 'pedals' and up and down pedals 

Alternatively hit mode once then the new patch (or up/down) 

TheBigDipper

CaseOfAce said:

Most people though, most of the time, including me, use it as if it was 5 pedals in one box and tap dance to turn the effects on and off. It's easy, feels much more like a set of pedals than an MFX unit, sounds great and encourages more playing, more knob twiddling/experimentation and less editing/programming. 

Hope that helps a bit... If not, ask me a question and I'll happily answer from my own experience if I can.

But if you are going to use it like that then you might as well buy 5 separate TC Electronics pedals and put them on a board? with the added ease of use / extra knob and  better quality effect? It doesn't work out a whole load more cost wise?

BD: If you're only going to ever load 5 specific pedals, that might be better for some people. It would probably take up more space, and you wouldn't be able to re-order them so easily, but they'd all have their control knobs on top. As each pedal would have its own DSP, there might be an improvement in sound quality, but I can't hear any lack of quality on the X5 I own. I didn't have to buy £100 of patch cabling to connect the pedals either, nor extra power supply capacity.

It doesn't matter to me, because I run in mono and only use one amp, but the X5 doesn't have the analog dry-thru that some TC pedals have. Because of the hardware, it can't. The X5 has a Toneprint feature called kill-dry for those wanting to run a wet-dry amp setup. On the X5, you cannot easily avoid putting your dry signal through the A/D/A converters unless you bypass the unit altogether. Luckily for me, I'm happy with the sound that comes out at the end. I used to be happy about the dry sound from my HX FX, too.  

The X5 has better ease-of-use, regarding storing Toneprints and using them. It supports 15 Toneprint pedals out of the 18 they actually make, and you can store up to 75 Toneprints per pedal on the X5 itself - by name. The regular TC pedals store 3, on average, and you need to remember which one you loaded into slot 2 on the pedal, because there's no naming. On the X5, I rarely connect to a computer or tablet. 

Two of the missing pedals are quite niche, and the third is the just-released Infinite Sustainer. I don't use the same 5 pedals all the time, but I can only load 5 of them at a time. Unlike separate pedals, I can also load more than one instance at a time in the same board - I wouldn't buy two compressors, but it's been fun trying to emulate the Cali 76 dual compression with two Hypergravity compressors set totally differently.

The ability to have different banks of 5 pedals with different settings is a major selling point of the unit - it should be seamless to switch between them - but it isn't. It's no issue at home - but live...

BD: That's just physics and hardware. The time it takes to load a DSP is what it is - for all pedals with just the one DSP. I believe you'd need two identical DSPs - and an ability to preload one before you switch to it - for that to actually be instantaneous. My personal experience is limited to a GT100, a Headrush, an HX FX and the X5, so someone else may know better than me. Maybe more expensive kit does it better? 

I was using a 5 pedal Yamaha MFC06 midi foot controller with an FX500 rack unit (like Ed O' Brien/Radiohead) and a JC 120 back in 1991.
It seems in the 30 years subsequently multi effects tech has barely moved on.

BD: From the perspective of imagination and capability, I'm sure you're correct. The main improvements are in the size of the solution, the cost and the availability - refinements rather than real advances, perhaps? To us conservative guitarists, certainly... 

Which is why when people ask what's the best / easiest unit for live use, people still recommend Boss ME-50s and the like on here!

BD: So true! Unlike digital modulation and spatial effects, I still struggle with digital modelling of amps and drive pedals - which is why I'm using analogue separates on my own board and a real amp. Apart from delay and reverb, I'm not a heavy user of modulation effects, but I do like to dabble. So, for me, having a convenient container for running the TC algorithms that I seem to prefer is what works for me. Until I change my mind again, obv! :-) 

We're lucky that there are so many different choices. One of them is bound to be the best choice for us as an individual - but the trick is sifting through the crap to get to the right one for you! 

Good questions/comments, Mark! Thanks. My replies are inline. Bit of an essay, sorry, but it's a sunny Saturday morning and I'm on my second cup of coffee! :-)