I think JustinGuitar is wrong about playing slowly to get faster

bertie

my  2 penneth -     they're both right and neither are wrong

One approach will be good for some people, and one for others,  and some weirdo's may even benefit from both depending on the piece being learned !

Mellish

With me it was go slow, get it right. 
I didn't want to be practicing mistakes. 

But whichever method works for you, I guess  

Bellycaster

Isn't it muscle memory the thing here? To me, that can only be achieved by going slower first.

timmypix

I'd also agree, to a point - for accuracy, you absolutely have to be able to play it slowly. But your muscles move in a different way at speed to how they do slowly - just like how your gait changes between walking and running - and it's important to remind your hands what they're working towards. I've always found slow practice with speed bursts to work well for me. Get it under the fingers, then spend most of the time building up the metronome practice slowly, but do regular burst of as close to full tempo as you can.

allen

digitalkettle said:

I think the important point here is that one's 'regular' playing is probably quite physically different to one's 'fast' playing, e.g. picking hand motions may get a lot more direct/flatter...anchor points may change, etc.

Yes, the actual process of playing alters when you go faster. I have a theory that this is why there are so many comments on forums from players saying that they have worked up from slow speeds and then arrive at terminal velocity below the target speed of the song. They are then stuck and can't go forward.

allen

Tannin said:

Good, thought-provoking work there @allen - and so refreshing to see someone articulating a well-thought-out view that doesn't simply follow the mainstream and indeed challenges it. 

My own take: there are different ways to learn. Some methods work better for some people. Some methods work better for some tasks. There is no single One Right Way. The trick is (a) to find what works for you, and (b) to be prepared to switch methods where your normal method isn't working. 

Thanks for posting!

Completely agree with the no single one right way. My issue is with those who promote that playing perfectly and slowly is the one right way.

Lewy

Bellycaster said:

Isn't it muscle memory the thing here? To me, that can only be achieved by going slower first.

The theory here is that the muscle memory you build playing something slowing may not be much good to you when trying to play fast because the movements are different...as different as sprinting is from walking. So play slow to learn the phrases correctly but then - now knowing what correct sounds like - just try and play it as fast as possible and let your brain's amazing capacity for trial and error make micro-adjustments to try to hone in on being able to execute at that speed. As long as you can still hear the difference between correct and incorrect, you're not "practicing your mistakes which is a concern lots of people have.

People should do what works for them, all I can say is when this finally twigged with me having always been unable to reliably play things quickly, I added very significant amounts of speed to my playing in a matter of weeks. For playing acoustic fiddle tunes, that meant going from 16th notes at 90bpm to 120-130 bpm and for electric playing, some sequenced three note per string things getting up around 170-180 bpm and that's from never having even tried to play that kind of way before. I can see why people are evangelical about it!

Lewy

allen said:

Tannin said:

Good, thought-provoking work there @allen - and so refreshing to see someone articulating a well-thought-out view that doesn't simply follow the mainstream and indeed challenges it. 

My own take: there are different ways to learn. Some methods work better for some people. Some methods work better for some tasks. There is no single One Right Way. The trick is (a) to find what works for you, and (b) to be prepared to switch methods where your normal method isn't working. 

Thanks for posting!

Completely agree with the no single one right way. My issue is with those who promote that playing perfectly and slowly is the one right way.

I also think that quite a lot of people who teach that way believe that's how they got fast but actually it's some other aspect of their musical experience - maybe playing with more advanced players where they had to hold on for dear life for example - that forced the speed, as opposed to what they thought was doing it.

And it's also possible that if you follow the "add 1 BPM a day" kind of ethos then actually what happens is there comes a break point at which you shift into more speed friendly movements - but you could have gone straight there and saved months if not years of your life!

BlueStrat

I think I'm in two player example in your video - stuck at intermediate forever and not playing fast as I'm  stuck in a loop of making a mistake and forever going back and trying to perfect my playing so its note perfect.

Anything that provokes (sensible) debate has to be a good thing so for me this is a really interesting video - thanks for posting

I also like your SRV poster - mind if I ask where you got it?

Bigsby

BillDL said:

A real world analogy would be somebody learning something like archery or snooker, where starting off slow and deliberate helps with accuracy and consistency. 

That's the thing with analogies - you can just pick one to say what you want, it doesn't have to relate at all, and contradicting ones make as much sense as each other. This one occurred to me: Consider buying a very sharp knife and deciding you want to learn to chop vegetables as fast as the flashiest TV chef. If you're going to take the 'start fast, then improve technique' approach, you'd better have a good supply of bandages. Thankfully frets don't tend to be that sharp!

I honestly can't recall if it was a Justin video I heard this in, but someone was offering this advice of building speed slowly (i.e. not practicing mistakes you're unaware of due to speed), but then recommended ending the session by playing much faster, just to see what you're actually able to do, and get a feel for playing fast. Next day, start where you left off in speed building, increasing it whilst retaining accuracy, then again end with a burst of fast playing. This seems a 'best of both worlds' approach to me, and may help prevent getting stuck in a speed rut. 

Switch625

Okay I have to ask...

Is that a Richie Sambora signature strat at 3:40? Is it yours??

TeleMaster

Lewy said:

Bellycaster said:

Isn't it muscle memory the thing here? To me, that can only be achieved by going slower first.

The theory here is that the muscle memory you build playing something slowing may not be much good to you when trying to play fast because the movements are different...as different as sprinting is from walking. 

I'm not sure I agree that this is the case. Walking and spiriting engages different muscle groups in different ways. Playing guitar uses pretty much the same muscles and digits in pretty much the same way. Playing guitar is ultimately a fine motor skill exercise, you are not now engaging your triceps, shoulders, biceps etc just by playing faster like when going from walking to sprinting.

I'd be interested in hearing a physios take. @Grunfeld ;

axisus

I don't have time to view the video now (at work) but I must remember to come back later. 

allen

BlueStrat said:

I think I'm in two player example in your video - stuck at intermediate forever and not playing fast as I'm  stuck in a loop of making a mistake and forever going back and trying to perfect my playing so its note perfect.

Anything that provokes (sensible) debate has to be a good thing so for me this is a really interesting video - thanks for posting

I also like your SRV poster - mind if I ask where you got it?

Thanks!

I got it on Etsy. There are loads on there. Ikea frame. 

I think I had an old thread on here asking for recommendations for guitar art so have a search for that.

imalrightjack

I think Joshua Voiles is maybe right, being somewhere in between:

https://www.guitaracceleration.com/how-to-practice-ll?r_done=1

I got huge gains from this. Lost them through lack of practice but you know how it is. 

Lewy

TeleMaster said:

Lewy said:

Bellycaster said:

Isn't it muscle memory the thing here? To me, that can only be achieved by going slower first.

The theory here is that the muscle memory you build playing something slowing may not be much good to you when trying to play fast because the movements are different...as different as sprinting is from walking. 

I'm not sure I agree that this is the case. Walking and spiriting engages different muscle groups in different ways. Playing guitar uses pretty much the same muscles and digits in pretty much the same way. Playing guitar is ultimately a fine motor skill exercise, you are not now engaging your triceps, shoulders, biceps etc just by playing faster like when going from walking to sprinting.

I'd be interested in hearing a physios take. @Grunfeld ;;

It’s not just the muscles though, it’s the neurological processes that go along with activating them. So perhaps a sprinter is only checking with what their body is doing every 10 paces, and each chuck of 10 paces is like a spasm or twitch, whereas strolling a 100 metres you’re almost checking in with yourself every step. You programme the chunks through forced speed to get them into that “not thinking about it” realm. 

rocktron

Here are Ben Higgins' views on Speed Picking:-

allen

Switch625 said:

Okay I have to ask...

Is that a Richie Sambora signature strat at 3:40? Is it yours??

Not mine. Didn't they just do a reissue of that guitar?

Roland

bertie said:

my  2 penneth -     they're both right and neither are wrong

One approach will be good for some people, and one for others,  and some weirdo's may even benefit from both depending on the piece being learned !

We can talk forever about situations, or people, where one approach works better than the other.

digitalkettle

Roland said:

We can talk forever about situations, or people, where one approach works better than the other.

Roland devises new forum mission statement!