micing up options..

ICBM

Drew_fx said:

Ahhh yes.... the good old "the audience wont know (because secretly I think they're all blithering idiots and I actually kind of resent having to play music for them at all!) so it's fine for me to be all half-hearted about it"

Not at all… just having been a sound engineer too, I know that I can make more difference to your guitar sound with that little knob marked 'treble' than you can with any microphone or speaker choice.

welshboyo

DI box it is then.....with lack of FOH engineer and time to set this up properly at gigs, I need the most hassle-free solution that will give soem sort of consistent results...

digitalscream

Incidentally, Jet City do one which is supposed to be pretty good. I've actually got one built into the back panel of my JC 2x12", I've just never got around to using it...

ThePrettyDamned

And they're useful for recording.

Nope, not as good as micd amp (especially now I've got the mic in a good spot) but it's a good way of getting ideas down.

p90fool

ICBM said:

Drew_fx said:

Ahhh yes.... the good old "the audience wont know (because secretly I think they're all blithering idiots and I actually kind of resent having to play music for them at all!) so it's fine for me to be all half-hearted about it"

Not at all… just having been a sound engineer too, I know that I can make more difference to your guitar sound with that little knob marked 'treble' than you can with any microphone or speaker choice.

You can make an even bigger difference with a button marked "mute", that doesn't mean it works for everything.

As you're aware more than most, the difference between say, a Ragin' Cajun and a Jensen P10R at gigging volume is night and day, not just a matter of broad frequency changes and can't be replicated at the desk, unless you have a very special knob indeed.


Half of your own posts on here are speaker-related, does say, the V30 work well with that amp, is that Eminence too shouty, or does the bottom end on this Jensen mush out?

Why bother with all that palaver if you just intend to bypass the whole lot with a 50 quid box the minute you're in front of a paying audience?

I don't buy the "Mics are always in the way and I won't trip over a DI box" argument either, half the guys on here gig with pedalboards so long they have a Burger King halfway along them, so a little cab mic looped through the amp handle isn't going to cramp the throwing-of-shapes-while-making-a-pouty-face action too much.

guitarfishbay

p90fool said:

I don't buy the "Mics are always in the way and I won't trip over a DI box" argument either, half the guys on here gig with pedalboards so long they have a Burger King halfway along them, 

Lol.

I just assume that the guys with enormous boards are either home players, or at least those are their home boards.  I know a guy who bought the biggest pedal train hard case model, filled it up with his pedal collection, took it to one practice and then decided never again.  He went and bought a smaller board and just stripped back to what he needed instead.

Drew_TNBD

This gig we did last Friday, the 2nd band on - lovely guys from Belgium, band called OMSQ - their boards were twice the size of mine, and I've got a Diago Showman... so it aint no tiny thing! Was quite mental.

I used to have a Diago Tourman completely filled with individual pedals, and a Musicomlabs EFXII. It lasted four gigs before I got pissed off with the weight and complexity. Also had the added bonus of making me feel like a jukebox rather than a musician! There was no challenge to the playing. Anyways... that's all off-piste.

I think microphones make such a massive difference to the live sound. Unfortunately in the kinds of venues we play, most of PA's are shit... so you're fighting a losing battle whether you mic it up or DI it. You're way better just focusing on the drums for microphones and letting the amps do their damn job. A 4x12 and a 100-watt amp fills a room very nicely. Yes... the people at the front are going to have a different sound to the people at the back. It's called LIVE MUSIC!

ICBM

Exactly. Horses for courses. I fully agree that speaker and mic choice, and position, makes a huge difference for recording. But live, in anything other than a very pro gig, the choice of mic and to a lesser extent speaker really isn't going to make the difference between a good out-front sound and a bad one - that comes down more to the sound engineer. Often the great sound you get on stage isn't even exactly what you want in the FOH mix anyway, when you really listen to it in context - so whether you reproduce it accurately is more or less irrelevant.

I do think it's important to start with the best sound you can, which you can spend a lot of time and effort on, but once you've done that, in the average live venue the difference between a (speaker emulating) DI box and a mic is not worth worrying about. And the DI box is definitely easier to set up and less of a nuisance on stage.

It's not a contradiction.

If you're playing Wembley with a pro crew and a state of the art PA, different story again.

Drew_TNBD

I guess my views (ie: crank the amps!) comes from the need for feedback (musical!) which you can struggle to get on quiet stages. Different acts need different solutions. So in that sense, totally agree with you John.

p90fool

ICBM said:

Exactly. Horses for courses. I fully agree that speaker and mic choice, and position, makes a huge difference for recording. But live, in anything other than a very pro gig, the choice of mic and to a lesser extent speaker really isn't going to make the difference between a good out-front sound and a bad one.

If you're playing Wembley with a pro crew and a state of the art PA, different story again.

I play mainly small venues with my own Mackie PA and monitors, with an amp set just a little over "home" volume, and actually like the flexibility mics give me.
Granted, the brand of mic is not hugely important to me above a reasonable quality level, but placement is everything and is far from subtle or "studio only".

For example in a quiet gig with a sparse mix moving the mic away from the centre of the speaker cone "softens" the sound and reduces the attack in a way I could never hope to replicate with my little mixer's EQ.

DI boxes with emulated outs are great, they're convenient and they really are more consistent than a mic, and in a loud pub band I won't hesitate to use them.

Remember though, one man's consistency is another's lack of flexibility - a single pickup guitar with no volume or tone pots is consistent night after night, but I certainly wouldn't want one.

ThePrettyDamned

@drew_fx I agree with you.

I have seen protest the hero, intervals and other techy bands loads, and they all use axe FX. It sounds great, and protest are one of the best bands I've heard live.

Then I see trivium, and they've got cranked 6505+s and bugger me if that's not the best live gig ever. Yes, sound is less consistent - but it's good across the board, just different kinds of good, with one or two bad spots.

They mic up, too, because the venues are big but you can really hear the amps, too - it's an incredible experience.

guitarfishbay

@ThePrettyDamned When did you see Trivium?

They're running Kempers direct last I heard.

ThePrettyDamned

guitarfishbay;348036" said:

@ThePrettyDamned When did you see Trivium?



They're running Kempers direct last I heard.

I've seen them several times - last time was download (not exactly comparable!)

The times I'm referring to are when shogun came out, then the in waves tour (I think they switched during this one). I've seen them at least ten times, only times I noticed no back line was in London last year and download. I think London was last year anyway.

Most times I've seen them were in 1000-2000 people venues and sporting the stacks. Best gig was at Uea Norwich - crikey, loudest thing I've heard, and an amazing gig. Corey met me before the show and let me have a go through his rig

steamabacus

Isn't the move towards axe/kemper more to do with the cost of touring (more specifically, hauling huge amounts of gear around) in the modern economic climate?

I'm not entirely sure these decisions are being made because they necessarily sound better (or worse). They're obviously good enough to do the job. Maybe more importantly, they're light enough to make the gig affordable?

digitalscream

steamabacus said:

Isn't the move towards axe/kemper more to do with the cost of touring (more specifically, hauling huge amounts of gear around) in the modern economic climate?

I'm not entirely sure these decisions are being made because they necessarily sound better (or worse). They're obviously good enough to do the job. Maybe more importantly, they're light enough to make the gig affordable?

...or even to make the gig possible. Remember Flight 666, where Iron Maiden said that there were some places they played for the first time only because they could cut the travel costs. With Kempers, you can carry your entire config on a USB memory stick. All you need to take with you is the memory stick, your guitar, your controller and your cables. Just make the Kemper units part of the rider, and you're done.

guitarfishbay

steamabacus said:

Isn't the move towards axe/kemper more to do with the cost of touring (more specifically, hauling huge amounts of gear around) in the modern economic climate?

I'm not entirely sure these decisions are being made because they necessarily sound better (or worse). They're obviously good enough to do the job. Maybe more importantly, they're light enough to make the gig affordable?

Yes this is a massive part of it, even Metallica have gone down this route now and they're one of the biggest bands in the world.

The thing is - the cost of travel and fuel is increasing, but the amount people expect to pay for a gig is the same.  Bands have to balance the books somehow.

monquixote

I play on a lot of small stages where you can't have a big pedal board and have about a spare foot to stand in and I have tripped over an SM57 and buggered up my sound on multiple occasions. 

My choice is either to get one of the Sen mics I hang over my cap or buy a Redbox. Most of what I hear is that they sound as good as most miced cabs so that's the way I'm going to go. I've also played with modellers and all sorts so if it sounds good I'll use it.

IanSavage

This thread makes me smile, because every time I see it I think of mice and what options I have for them.

ICBM

Drew_fx said:

I guess my views (ie: crank the amps!) comes from the need for feedback (musical!) which you can struggle to get on quiet stages. Different acts need different solutions.

http://resource.gearbug.com/e1/boss_df2_super_dist_and_feedbacker2.jpg

I'm fully aware that it does not sound like amp feedback! (I use both… or I would if I was still gigging at rock-band volume. I only do that with bass, and yes I do use feedback .)

EricTheWeary

When I saw Deep Purple last year Steve Morse had a wall of Engl stacks with mics. A sound reduced to mush out front for quite a lot of the gig. The guitarist in the support band was playing through a modeller, by the look of it, certainly no amp on stage, and it was as clear as a bell. I'm not saying it was a truly great sound but for that sound guy in that venue with a few thousand people in the audience the simpler, probably cheaper and certainly smaller set up worked better. Presumably on stage Mr Morse sounded awesome but I didn't get to hear a lot of awesome where I was sat.