It's quite astonishing how little most singers know about music ...

JayGee

JMS96 said:

And they invent some total BS about why we have to play it in the original key…

It’s usually been the opposite for me with singers asking for things to be transposed (which is fair enough, I totally get the thing about voices not having a capo) with absolutely no consideration for the implications in terms of open chord shapes, open string drones, use of feedback (some notes just won’t for me…) etc, or occasionally forcing my fingers so far up the fretboard that my clumsy sausage fingers simply won’t fi in the required places…

Roland

Something that hasn’t been mentioned in this discussion is that we each listen to different aspects of a song. The drummer might say “let’s take it from the third chorus” but the bass player sees that as the pre-chorus because he plays a different pattern, and I think of it as a bridge because it only happens once in that song. Similarly, I’ll play xx5343, but whether it’s Eb or Cm7 depends on what the bass is playing. Unless the singer knows plays the song on an instrument then there’s no need for her to know which chord it is. She may be thinking “transition to head voice” or “the bit where I need to fit all those words in”.

EricTheWeary

Roland said:

Something that hasn’t been mentioned in this discussion is that we each listen to different aspects of a song. The drummer might say “let’s take it from the third chorus” but the bass player sees that as the pre-chorus because he plays a different pattern, and I think of it as a bridge because it only happens once in that song. Similarly, I’ll play xx5343, but whether it’s Eb or Cm7 depends on what the bass is playing. Unless the singer knows plays the song on an instrument then there’s no need for her to know which chord it is. She may be thinking “transition to head voice” or “the bit where I need to fit all those words in”.

...and the singer gets exasperated because s/he says take it from the line '*""£_&++' and realises no one else in the band has the foggiest what the lyrics are. 

4on6

I’ve worked with a variety of singers from those that had perfect pitch and could play every instrument in the band .. very well… to those that really had no language interface to signal what they wanted me to do (frustrating and time consuming fo sho)… but I’ve learnt to respect and support most of them… they’re the ones that the majority of the audience relate to most… the ones that tell the story… they are often the conduit of energy between band and audience.. they are at the front because they have a stronger impulse to connect directly with a room full of people and their instrument is their body… and the band works best when we all know how our roles fit together to create music that means something. 

Doesn’t mean I don’t get pretty annoyed at trying to explain a minor 3rd or beat 2 for the hundredth time. 

Hattigol

EricTheWeary said:

Roland said:

Something that hasn’t been mentioned in this discussion is that we each listen to different aspects of a song. The drummer might say “let’s take it from the third chorus” but the bass player sees that as the pre-chorus because he plays a different pattern, and I think of it as a bridge because it only happens once in that song. Similarly, I’ll play xx5343, but whether it’s Eb or Cm7 depends on what the bass is playing. Unless the singer knows plays the song on an instrument then there’s no need for her to know which chord it is. She may be thinking “transition to head voice” or “the bit where I need to fit all those words in”.

...and the singer gets exasperated because s/he says take it from the line '*""£_&++' and realises no one else in the band has the foggiest what the lyrics are. 

Exactly this. The drummer in my old band said once 'let's take it from where you sing "landslide"''. Baffled singer checks his lyrics. No mention of landslide. The word was 'unanswered'. We'd been playing it about three years...

I have no idea of lyrics other than as triggers for changes in the guitar part.

viz

Hattigol said:

EricTheWeary said:

Roland said:

Something that hasn’t been mentioned in this discussion is that we each listen to different aspects of a song. The drummer might say “let’s take it from the third chorus” but the bass player sees that as the pre-chorus because he plays a different pattern, and I think of it as a bridge because it only happens once in that song. Similarly, I’ll play xx5343, but whether it’s Eb or Cm7 depends on what the bass is playing. Unless the singer knows plays the song on an instrument then there’s no need for her to know which chord it is. She may be thinking “transition to head voice” or “the bit where I need to fit all those words in”.

...and the singer gets exasperated because s/he says take it from the line '*""£_&++' and realises no one else in the band has the foggiest what the lyrics are. 

Exactly this. The drummer in my old band said once 'let's take it from where you sing "landslide"''. Baffled singer checks his lyrics. No mention of landslide. The word was 'unanswered'. We'd been playing it about three years...

Lol brilliant.

Slash'N'burn

In my last band, the female singer didn't play an instrument but took a real Interest in the guitar sounds, and would make great suggestions that would shape the songs. She particularly liked the sound of a Boss Flanger, and would have ideas of where it should come in/out, and how much etc. 
I think while the rest of us where concentrating on our own instruments she could 'hear' the overall sound much better, and always had ideas for dynamics and structure changes that the rest of wouldn't of thought of, it definately improved us.

uncledick

Danny1969 said:

To be honest a lot of musicians in bands have very little idea what's really going on. With guitarist generally being the worse. They can play the song because they have learnt it either by ear or tab but they don't understand what's happening interval wise so in a lot of cases can't instantly transpose the piece or harmonise without working it out first. 

Even something as simple as the key is often misunderstood with a lot of people assuming the first chord played is the key of the song. Then during solo's completely avoidable mistakes are made because they don't know what notes are in the key and they don't know what chords they are playing over. 

I see a lot of pub bands with some players who have a lovely feel and really nice control of bends and expression f#ck up constantly because they haven't bothered to study a bit of theory. 

I always think no one expects everybody in the band to be some kind of musical professor but to not bother to learn anything at all theory wise is kind of making life difficult for the sake of it ... like some weird badge of honour. 

I know you're right and will admit to being very limited on theory.  I've played, on and off, for 50 years but haven't had a single lesson.  Watching your tutorial on Mr Brightside is the nearest I've been! (forever grateful ).  I think the problem - to use an analogy - is that people see it as like learning to drive and then suddenly being expected to understand when their EGR system will open up, and whether the air mass meter should see a rise or fall in its output voltage.  I could rebuild an engine years before I could drive and it is clear that there are musicians who, in a similar vein, will take a sound theoretical knowledge and then apply it to a piece of music and tell a fellow player which chords will work in any given scenario. 

I suppose a good tutor would watch someone and then know where the next development step might be. Your phrase "they haven't bothered to learn a bit of theory" is very telling.  I'd happily sit for an hour or two and learn "a bit of theory", but which bit??  AAarrghh!