When the '4 Chord' is Minor

Rocker

A friend showed me the chords for a song he is learning: 'Sad Cafe' by the Eagles.  This has the progression, B, E minor, F#, B.  The expected chords would be, B, E, F#, B.  The 4 Chord is minor in that song.  Likewise in 'Man of the World' by Peter Green, D, A, G minor, A, D.

Interesting how the playing of the 4 Chord in minor changes the mood and feel of the song [compared to playing it in major].  Perhaps some of our theory experts like @Viz might jump in and explain what is happening.  My theory knowledge is basic  but improving slightly....  Thanks.

Danny1969

It’s a classic trick used by Beatles , Radiohead and all kinds of bands. 

It’s a borrowed chord, from the minor scale, very effective 

CaseOfAce

The trick when it comes to using the 4 minor chord is to play it after the 4 major in a chord progression - and yep - there it is - you'll have heard the sound in countless hits.

octatonic

I understand it as a modification of the Rhythm Changes, where you would move from the IV chord to the I chord via a iv chord.

So, 

F major / F minor / | C / / /  ||

viz

As others have said. And I really like the long violin diad at the end of Oasis Look Back in Anger - it’s a lovely example. 4:20 here:

https://youtu.be/cmpRLQZkTb8

The only thing I can usefully add is that quite a lot of music in a major key has a minor 4 chord, not as the IV - iv thing, but as part of the mode. It happens to exist as the 5th mode of melodic minor (also called mixolydian b6), which has I ii(dim) iii(dim) iv v bVI(aug) bVII. It’s in loads of Duran Duran and Rachmaninov. 

The other nice thing in a IV-iv-I is to switch the iv with a bVII13. Like if you were doing D - Dm - A, you’d do D - G13 - A, where the G13 is 3 x 3 4 5 x. It’s not as tragic as the iv but it has a certain tenderness. 

thecolourbox

I'm trying to think how to word this as my chord naming skills are a bit out of practice. But generally whenever I play something on piano where the minor iv chord is used in a major key, as I often find it a bit overused, I tend to use the 7th chord of the flattened 7th note, if that makes sense.

So say we are in G, instead of using a Cm as the iv chord, I would use F7, perhaps with an added 9th (g note). Probably quite similar to Viz's D->G13 thing

viz

Precisely the same!

In terms of overused, Rachmaninov’s entire 3rd piano concerto (apart from the main theme) and 4th concerto use it. It infuses the whole piece. It’s a bit unsettling because you keep expecting it to resolve up a 4th. 

Cranky

viz said:

As others have said. And I really like the long violin diad at the end of Oasis Look Back in Anger - it’s a lovely example. 4:20 here:

https://youtu.be/cmpRLQZkTb8

The only thing I can usefully add is that quite a lot of music in a major key has a minor 4 chord, not as the IV - iv thing, but as part of the mode. It happens to exist as the 5th mode of melodic minor (also called mixolydian b6), which has I ii(dim) iii(dim) iv v bVI(aug) bVII. It’s in loads of Duran Duran and Rachmaninov. 

The other nice thing in a IV-iv-I is to switch the iv with a bVII13. Like if you were doing D - Dm - A, you’d do D - G13 - A, where the G13 is 3 x 3 4 5 x. It’s not as tragic as the iv but it has a certain tenderness. 

Is this the one that’s called a “back door resolution”?

viz

Indeed!

Although strictly speaking the proper correct one is iv-bVII7-I. Like in the 2nd line of Misty. “Cloud” at 00:30

https://youtu.be/rPOlakkBlj8

I’m saying it’s also just as lovely in a IV-bVII7-I. Or indeed a IV-bVII-vi, like after “nipping at your nose” in The Christmas Song, at 1:59 in this EXCELLENT rundown by Joel McCray of the chords of this gorgeous song. 

https://youtu.be/X0O7GeSFVt8