10 or 11 gauge strings for 000-size guitar?

JamesC01

A year and a half ago I bought a sigma 000m-15, and I rarely play it. The strings feels way too tight when strumming, hammer-ons are hard, and it sounds way too bass-heavy and loud. It currently has 12 gauge strings. Would you recommend I drop down to 11s, or 10s? I really am not enjoying the 12 gauge ones. Will the 11s make a noticeable difference, or would I need to go to 10s? Also, is it safe to use 10 gauge strings on a 000?

malcolmkindness

12's should be fine if the guitar is set up correctly, I suggest you bring it to a guitar tech for a check up.

earwighoney

JamesC01 said:

A year and a half ago I bought a sigma 000m-15, and I rarely play it. The strings feels way too tight when strumming, hammer-ons are hard, and it sounds way too bass-heavy and loud. It currently has 12 gauge strings. Would you recommend I drop down to 11s, or 10s? I really am not enjoying the 12 gauge ones. Will the 11s make a noticeable difference, or would I need to go to 10s? Also, is it safe to use 10 gauge strings on a 000?

Do you have a chance of measuring the string height at the 12th fret?

Like Malcolm said a trip to the local tech might be a good thing to do.  If needs the tech could lower the saddle, or even the nut slots if needs be.

I myself find 12-53/54's to be a bit hard on the fingers tuned to EADGBE, I'd try dropping the strings two semitones in the meantime to see if it improves playability, but there's no harm in trying lighter strings, it might just need a tweak to the truss rod.

As for using light strings, it's generally fine. Using heavier strings can place too much pressure on the soundboard.

ICBM

There's a very good chance it isn't set-up correctly - almost all guitars come from new with the nut too high, and in a lot of cases the neck will bow forward over time under the string tension from when the guitar is new and before it settles down. Both these things make the action higher and the guitar harder to play.

Check the nut height - simply fret each string at the third fret (so it's also resting on the second) and look at the gap between the string and the first fret. It should be tiny - less than about a quarter of the string diameter and possibly as small as a tenth of it. If it's bigger than this, the guitar will feel stiff and hard to play in the open chord positions.

Check the relief - hold the guitar in the playing position, fret the G string at the first fret and also hold it down at the 15th with your right hand. Look at the gap between the string and the 7th fret - it should be about half the G string diameter, or a bit less. If it's much bigger than this, the action will be far too high in the middle of the neck.

If the nut is too high it will need professional attention - deepening the nut grooves requires the right tools, and experience.

If the relief is too large, you can adjust it yourself if you have the right tool for the truss rod. Contrary to popular fearmongering the neck will not explode if you tighten it slightly yourself . It's actually very difficult to break one if you use the *correct* tool and don't apply obviously stupid amounts of force - but if in doubt, and especially if the nut is also too high, professional advice is best.

Bridge height is harder to assess, because the correct height is affected by both the nut and relief, so you can't easily check that unless both are already right.

Finally - yes, the string gauge may be too high for you. There's no rule that acoustics must be strung with suspension bridge cables, and also contrary to popular myth, using lighter ones will not instantly kill the tone. Many smaller and lighter-built guitars sound at least as good with lighter ones, even as light as 10s (the lightest common gauge), although you may lose some bottom-end... but it sounds like you may prefer that. 11s can be a good compromise, and usually have lower strings nearly (or exactly) the same gauges as 12s but with lighter high strings, which makes playing easier.

If you've checked the nut and the relief, and the nut is OK but the relief is slightly too great, I would probably try a set of 10s first - the lower tension will allow the neck to move backwards slightly by itself and a truss rod adjustment may not even be necessary.

Does that make any sense?

JamesC01

ICBM said:

There's a very good chance it isn't set-up correctly - almost all guitars come from new with the nut too high, and in a lot of cases the neck will bow forward over time under the string tension from when the guitar is new and before it settles down. Both these things make the action higher and the guitar harder to play.

Check the nut height - simply fret each string at the third fret (so it's also resting on the second) and look at the gap between the string and the first fret. It should be tiny - less than about a quarter of the string diameter and possibly as small as a tenth of it. If it's bigger than this, the guitar will feel stiff and hard to play in the open chord positions.

Check the relief - hold the guitar in the playing position, fret the G string at the first fret and also hold it down at the 15th with your right hand. Look at the gap between the string and the 7th fret - it should be about half the G string diameter, or a bit less. If it's much bigger than this, the action will be far too high in the middle of the neck.

If the nut is too high it will need professional attention - deepening the nut grooves requires the right tools, and experience.

If the relief is too large, you can adjust it yourself if you have the right tool for the truss rod. Contrary to popular fearmongering the neck will not explode if you tighten it slightly yourself . It's actually very difficult to break one if you use the *correct* tool and don't apply obviously stupid amounts of force - but if in doubt, and especially if the nut is also too high, professional advice is best.

Bridge height is harder to assess, because the correct height is affected by both the nut and relief, so you can't easily check that unless both are already right.

Finally - yes, the string gauge may be too high for you. There's no rule that acoustics must be strung with suspension bridge cables, and also contrary to popular myth, using lighter ones will not instantly kill the tone. Many smaller and lighter-built guitars sound at least as good with lighter ones, even as light as 10s (the lightest common gauge), although you may lose some bottom-end... but it sounds like you may prefer that. 11s can be a good compromise, and usually have lower strings nearly (or exactly) the same gauges as 12s but with lighter high strings, which makes playing easier.

If you've checked the nut and the relief, and the nut is OK but the relief is slightly too great, I would probably try a set of 10s first - the lower tension will allow the neck to move backwards slightly by itself and a truss rod adjustment may not even be necessary.

Does that make any sense?

Thanks for the help! When I fret at the third fret, there's so little space between the fret and string that the note is muted, so that's not the problem. For the relief, it's exactly like you described. To be honest, difficulty with hammer-ons is the least of my problems, I could probably just build up more strength. My main thing is that the strings feel really tense when strumming, and when playing softly, it's very easy to drop the pick. It's also too bassy. I'll pick up some 10 gauge strings, then!

ICBM

JamesC01 said:

Thanks for the help! When I fret at the third fret, there's so little space between the fret and string that the note is muted, so that's not the problem. For the relief, it's exactly like you described. To be honest, difficulty with hammer-ons is the least of my problems, I could probably just build up more strength. My main thing is that the strings feel really tense when strumming, and when playing softly, it's very easy to drop the pick. It's also too bassy. I'll pick up some 10 gauge strings, then!

That sounds like it's probably fine as it is - no set-up needed yet, just try a set of 10s. The worst that can happen is that it's too rattly and buzzy, in which case you could either try some 11s, or loosen the truss rod slightly... either way it's still cheaper than a full set-up which is the final option if it just doesn't work like that. It does sound like the sheer weight of the strings is the main problem though.

Acoustic purists will probably scoff, but I use 11s on a full-size dreadnought, and it doesn't sound thin or weak at all. There's far too much made of using the heaviest strings you can handle, in my opinion - in fact, for lightly-built guitars it can even be counterproductive, excessive tension can actually stiffen the top too much and restrict the volume and tone, not improve it.

bertie

12s   always 12s

Soupman

Newtone Heritage strings are lighter tension hence easier to fret.
I put a set of NT 12s on an old guitar recently to ease tension, then tried the NT 11s.
 Both are excellent and have good string balance, but I think next time I'll go back to the 12s as I find the 11s a bit too rubber band-ish for my style.
Depends what you're looking for.
Good hunting! 

JamesC01

ICBM said:

JamesC01 said:

Thanks for the help! When I fret at the third fret, there's so little space between the fret and string that the note is muted, so that's not the problem. For the relief, it's exactly like you described. To be honest, difficulty with hammer-ons is the least of my problems, I could probably just build up more strength. My main thing is that the strings feel really tense when strumming, and when playing softly, it's very easy to drop the pick. It's also too bassy. I'll pick up some 10 gauge strings, then!

That sounds like it's probably fine as it is - no set-up needed yet, just try a set of 10s. The worst that can happen is that it's too rattly and buzzy, in which case you could either try some 11s, or loosen the truss rod slightly... either way it's still cheaper than a full set-up which is the final option if it just doesn't work like that. It does sound like the sheer weight of the strings is the main problem though.

Acoustic purists will probably scoff, but I use 11s on a full-size dreadnought, and it doesn't sound thin or weak at all. There's far too much made of using the heaviest strings you can handle, in my opinion - in fact, for lightly-built guitars it can even be counterproductive, excessive tension can actually stiffen the top too much and restrict the volume and tone, not improve it.

Went with the 10s. They're so much nicer! The guitar sounds more balanced, a bit quieter, which I like, feels better to strum, and is easier to fret and do hammer-ons! Intonation is okay for most notes, except the g string is a bit sharp on the 12th fret.

guitarjack66

I find my Sigma a bit 'bassy' by nature.I have 11s on mine too.

JCA2550

I mostly use 11s on acoustics.  The easiest way to check if the action needs lowering at the nut is pop a capo on at the 1st or 2nd fret. If it's noticeably easier to play, the slots need cutting deeper. I recommend getting someone with experience to do it for you though?

BillDL

JamesC01 said:

... Intonation is okay for most notes, except the g string is a bit sharp on the 12th fret.

That's fairly common when using what would really be seen as "super-lightweight" strings on an acoustic.  Regardless of the gauge the G string is always the problematic one on electrics and acoustics and is the reason why the G-string saddle always has to be much further back than all the other ones on an electric and also why "compensated" acoustic saddles are filed or moulded so that the G-String breaks over the saddle further back.  It looks as though your guitar has a straight uncompensated saddle, and it probably intonates fine with 12s and 11s.

The next time you are changing strings, lift the saddle out and take accurate measurements of the width, thickness, and height at each end of the saddle (and in the middle if it has a visible radius).  Tusq saddles come in a lot of dimensions and you will probably be able to find a compensated one that is suitable to the dimensions of the Sigma.  It is possible to create some compensation on a straight saddle by filing or sanding so that the G-String breaks over it further back, but it's fiddly work and there's no sense in doing this on the original saddle, especially if you can buy a perfect match that (at the very most) might need some height sanded off the bottom or off the thickness.

If you are annoyed by the slight out-of-tuneness of the G-String when playing open D, A, and E chords, you can always detune the G-String very slightly to make it less noticeable and the marginally lower pitch will most likely be hardly apparent as you play further up the neck.

ICBM

JamesC01 said:

Intonation is okay for most notes, except the g string is a bit sharp on the 12th fret.

One of the reasons for this is that the gauges of the G string in most standard sets of 10s and 11s are, bizarrely, the wrong way round - 23 in 10s and 22 in 11s… really! I have no idea why, but most makers seem to do it. This makes the intonation of the G noticeably different from the other strings in the set, so it sounds more obvious that it’s out of tune.

This is one of the reasons I use Newtones, since I can order a set of 11s with the correct 23 gauge G.

I also use compensated saddles, which make a noticeable difference and aren’t expensive to have made if you can’t buy one which fits, or modify one yourself.

wellsyboy

Soupman said:

Newtone Heritage strings are lighter tension hence easier to fret.
I put a set of NT 12s on an old guitar recently to ease tension, then tried the NT 11s.
 Both are excellent and have good string balance, but I think next time I'll go back to the 12s as I find the 11s a bit too rubber band-ish for my style.
Depends what you're looking for.
Good hunting! 

+1 for this - when I switched to Newtones I noticed an immediate reduction in “stiffness” and general playability improved further. My Atkin D37 Pre War was awesome straight out of the box but as a Newtone convert I still noticed a difference when changing out the factory fitted Elixirs

bertie

Id sooner use 12s and tune down 1/2 step than use anything lighter