Clarinet upper register issues

TheOtherDennis

Trying to relearn the clarinet after a 40 year gap, two things have happened.

Man, I am slow. I was never one of those fleet-fingered people who can rattle off tunes at a million miles an hour, but I'm sure I used to be able to play faster than I do now.

But the biggest issue I have is with the upper register. I'll be able to play some notes for a bit, but then...nothing. Literally, nothing. Not even a horrid, ear-piercing squeak.

I've tried a firmer reed - from a 2 to a 2.5 - but all that does is make me even slower and make my cheeks hurt after a bit.

I've loosened the ligature, too, but nothing seems to work consistently.

I went to a clarinet teach for a lesson, and we did a few exercises across the hour, and she said she couldn't see anything wrong, because nothing went wrong in the hour. Encouraged, I came home and went straight back to square one.

Baffled.

Any ideas?

DartmoorHedgehog

When you say "upper register" do you mean just the normal notes with the octave key pressed (so B to high C)? If you can play all the lower register notes then it's probably not a leak, so I'd suspect just lack of practice (weak embouchure) - after a long time not playing it's surprising how your muscles lose the grip.

If you mean the next register up (altissimo, with left-hand first finger off) then that needs a properly strong embouchure.

Have you been playing other wind instruments (sax?) in the meantime? I only say that because saxophone embouchure is very different from clarinet - much looser and at a different angle. I learnt on clarinet and I often find myself playing sax "like a clarinet" if I'm not thinking - it doesn't work well!

I reckon your problem will go away when your mouth muscles get back into it.

EDIT: One other possibility is a partially blocked octave hole.  See if you can poke a pipe cleaner or something into the octave pip and make sure there's no gunk built up in there - that might explain why it works one moment but not the next if the hole is partially blocked and is getting completely blocked intermittently by moisture/spit.

merlin

The formation of a clarinet embouchure is best achieved if you imagine that you are forming a ring of muscle around the mouthpiece, rather than vertical pressure. Vertical pressure, (or what we clarinetists affectionately call "biting") will close off the reed against the mouthpiece and stop air flow. It will also probably put the upper register out of tune and possibly make the inside of your bottom lip bleed. 

Usually when our embouchure, lips, cheeks etc become tired, beginners ofter resort to biting. Really, really best not to. 

I would also suggest that you may not have enough mouthpiece in your gob. Try putting a little (seriously a little) at a time until you can find a way to form and hold the ring of muscle around the mouthpiece. Edge your teeth a little down the top of the mouthpiece. Generally you need to insert the mouthpiece gently until the lips are sealed around the mouthpiece and the top teeth are gently resting on the top of the mouthpiece. 

I've tried a firmer reed - from a 2 to a 2.5 - but all that does is make me even slower and make my cheeks hurt after a bit.

You cheeks and lips will probably hurt until you build up stamina. You need to accept that. Reed strength needs to be matched with the tip opening of the mouthpiece. Wider = softer, more closed = harder. 
 

roberty

This brings back memories. I did up to grade 5 as a lad but then I heard Nirvana for the first time and it all went out the window. Good luck with relearning @TheOtherDennis ;

TheOtherDennis

DartmoorHedgehog said:

When you say "upper register" do you mean just the normal notes with the octave key pressed (so B to high C)? 

Yes. Didn't know it went even higher. As my tutor book is a basic one, I'm assuming it's not been covered.

DartmoorHedgehog said:

Have you been playing other wind instruments (sax?) in the meantime? I only say that because saxophone embouchure is very different from clarinet - much looser and at a different angle. I learnt on clarinet and I often find myself playing sax "like a clarinet" if I'm not thinking - it doesn't work well!

I reckon your problem will go away when your mouth muscles get back into it.

EDIT: One other possibility is a partially blocked octave hole.  See if you can poke a pipe cleaner or something into the octave pip and make sure there's no gunk built up in there - that might explain why it works one moment but not the next if the hole is partially blocked and is getting completely blocked intermittently by moisture/spit.

No, I haven't. As it happens, when I was a kid, I wanted to learn the saxophone, but we couldn't afford to buy one. However, my dad had a clarinet, so he told me what I imagine pretty much every kid who wants to learn the sax is told "Learn the clarinet first, then you can play both."

And I don't know about a blocked octave hole, but the octave key (see, I thought it was called the register key, shows how my memory is so patchy) does stick if I haven't played it for a few hours.

merlin said:

The formation of a clarinet embouchure is best achieved if you imagine that you are forming a ring of muscle around the mouthpiece, rather than vertical pressure. Vertical pressure, (or what we clarinetists affectionately call "biting") will close off the reed against the mouthpiece and stop air flow. It will also probably put the upper register out of tune and possibly make the inside of your bottom lip bleed. 

Usually when our embouchure, lips, cheeks etc become tired, beginners ofter resort to biting. Really, really best not to. 

I would also suggest that you may not have enough mouthpiece in your gob. Try putting a little (seriously a little) at a time until you can find a way to form and hold the ring of muscle around the mouthpiece. Edge your teeth a little down the top of the mouthpiece. Generally you need to insert the mouthpiece gently until the lips are sealed around the mouthpiece and the top teeth are gently resting on the top of the mouthpiece. 

I've tried a firmer reed - from a 2 to a 2.5 - but all that does is make me even slower and make my cheeks hurt after a bit.

You cheeks and lips will probably hurt until you build up stamina. You need to accept that. Reed strength needs to be matched with the tip opening of the mouthpiece. Wider = softer, more closed = harder. 
 

Ok, I'll try that, see if it helps.

Thanks for your advice, gents.

DartmoorHedgehog

TheOtherDennis said:

DartmoorHedgehog said:

When you say "upper register" do you mean just the normal notes with the octave key pressed (so B to high C)? 

Yes. Didn't know it went even higher. As my tutor book is a basic one, I'm assuming it's not been covered.

DartmoorHedgehog said:

Have you been playing other wind instruments (sax?) in the meantime? I only say that because saxophone embouchure is very different from clarinet - much looser and at a different angle. I learnt on clarinet and I often find myself playing sax "like a clarinet" if I'm not thinking - it doesn't work well!

I reckon your problem will go away when your mouth muscles get back into it.

EDIT: One other possibility is a partially blocked octave hole.  See if you can poke a pipe cleaner or something into the octave pip and make sure there's no gunk built up in there - that might explain why it works one moment but not the next if the hole is partially blocked and is getting completely blocked intermittently by moisture/spit.

No, I haven't. As it happens, when I was a kid, I wanted to learn the saxophone, but we couldn't afford to buy one. However, my dad had a clarinet, so he told me what I imagine pretty much every kid who wants to learn the sax is told "Learn the clarinet first, then you can play both."

And I don't know about a blocked octave hole, but the octave key (see, I thought it was called the register key, shows how my memory is so patchy) does stick if I haven't played it for a few hours

I believe the range of the clarinet (4 octaves) is about the widest of any orchestral instrument (apart from piano). Fingerings for altissimo range above the normal second register get a bit creative though - and not particularly pleasant-sounding in my opinion even if played well!

I always assumed sax was "the same thing" apart from the slight fingering differences (and the octave registers vs the 12th of a clarinet). I started doubling on alto sax when I was playing in a wind band in my late teens and got away with playing it "like a clarinettist" for a couple of years. Works fairly well on alto as long as you don't need to play the bottom couple of notes much. Much more recently I got a baritone because I always lusted after one in my youth but couldn't afford to have one. That really showed me up as a non-sax-player and forced me to learn to play it properly - and funnily enough my alto playing has vastly improved (both tone and intonation) as well. Anyway, going off-topic a bit...

 I think "register key" and "octave key" are both acceptable terms for the "make it higher button". If it's sticky and can get stuck partially open, that could cause weird behaviour, but I'd expect the lower register to be harder to play in that case rather than the upper. Does the pad look in good condition? No flap of "skin" than could stick to the hole even when the key appears to be open? I'd still be inclined to check the hole is clear. If all that looks good then hopefully it'll just be a case of getting your embouchure trained up again - if you used to play then you're not really like a normal beginner, you know how to do it, just your muscles are out of practice. When I've been playing sax a lot (which has been the case the last few years - clarinet's not really called for much in a rock band ) it doesn't take long away from the clarinet to start to lose embouchure strength - sax is a MUCH looser technique (high volume, low-pressure vs low volume, high-pressure), and more so the bigger they get. If I don't play clarinet for a few months it hurts when I pick it up again - so 40 years must be extremely noticeable!

TheOtherDennis

The sticky pad is actually the other way round - it moves normally as soon as I unstick it. What bothers me is that the clarinet was supposed to have been serviced properly, and they missed this. I think it needs a bit of a clean.

There are no flaps or anything coming from the pad, so that's not it.

I do get there's actually a big difference between the sax and the clarinet, and also why the clarinet isn't that common in bands, but I went for the clarinet because of John Helliwell in Supertramp. I was a big fan as a kid and I thought if it works for them...

As for the altissimo range, well, my upper register notes are squawky enough without getting even worse!

And yeah, the 40 year gap really has been very noticeable indeed!!

merlin

TheOtherDennis said:

The sticky pad is actually the other way round - it moves normally as soon as I unstick it. What bothers me is that the clarinet was supposed to have been serviced properly, and they missed this. I think it needs a bit of a clean.

There are no flaps or anything coming from the pad, so that's not it.

I do get there's actually a big difference between the sax and the clarinet, and also why the clarinet isn't that common in bands, but I went for the clarinet because of John Helliwell in Supertramp. I was a big fan as a kid and I thought if it works for them...

As for the altissimo range, well, my upper register notes are squawky enough without getting even worse!

And yeah, the 40 year gap really has been very noticeable indeed!!

Micro-leaks are a thing. They effect intonation and clarity of notes. Depending where they are on the instrument they can be a right PITA and make you sound stuffy and waste a lot of air that ought to be making sound. Sometimes they're so small you can't see them at all. 

Get a silver Rizla and tear off the glue part. Put the very tip under each part of the necessary pad and push it down. If it slides out you have a leak. 

fretmeister

I asked my eldest. She's a keen player.

Her main response was that the upper register is shit anyway so play in the money range in the mids and lows. 

 

TheOtherDennis

merlin said:

TheOtherDennis said:

The sticky pad is actually the other way round - it moves normally as soon as I unstick it. What bothers me is that the clarinet was supposed to have been serviced properly, and they missed this. I think it needs a bit of a clean.

There are no flaps or anything coming from the pad, so that's not it.

I do get there's actually a big difference between the sax and the clarinet, and also why the clarinet isn't that common in bands, but I went for the clarinet because of John Helliwell in Supertramp. I was a big fan as a kid and I thought if it works for them...

As for the altissimo range, well, my upper register notes are squawky enough without getting even worse!

And yeah, the 40 year gap really has been very noticeable indeed!!

Micro-leaks are a thing. They effect intonation and clarity of notes. Depending where they are on the instrument they can be a right PITA and make you sound stuffy and waste a lot of air that ought to be making sound. Sometimes they're so small you can't see them at all. 

Get a silver Rizla and tear off the glue part. Put the very tip under each part of the necessary pad and push it down. If it slides out you have a leak. 

Oh I know they're a thing, no question about that, but (and I'm asking this out of ignorance) wouldn't they affect every note, not just some?

fretmeister said:

I asked my eldest. She's a keen player.

Her main response was that the upper register is shit anyway so play in the money range in the mids and lows. 

 

I have sympathy with that, but the occasional note at the top of the stave is essential to most tunes, unfortunately.

merlin

TheOtherDennis said:

Oh I know they're a thing, no question about that, but (and I'm asking this out of ignorance) wouldn't they affect every note, not just some?

That depends on how high up the instrument they are. The higher they are, the more notes they alter...

fretmeister

TheOtherDennis said:

merlin said:

TheOtherDennis said:

The sticky pad is actually the other way round - it moves normally as soon as I unstick it. What bothers me is that the clarinet was supposed to have been serviced properly, and they missed this. I think it needs a bit of a clean.

There are no flaps or anything coming from the pad, so that's not it.

I do get there's actually a big difference between the sax and the clarinet, and also why the clarinet isn't that common in bands, but I went for the clarinet because of John Helliwell in Supertramp. I was a big fan as a kid and I thought if it works for them...

As for the altissimo range, well, my upper register notes are squawky enough without getting even worse!

And yeah, the 40 year gap really has been very noticeable indeed!!

Micro-leaks are a thing. They effect intonation and clarity of notes. Depending where they are on the instrument they can be a right PITA and make you sound stuffy and waste a lot of air that ought to be making sound. Sometimes they're so small you can't see them at all. 

Get a silver Rizla and tear off the glue part. Put the very tip under each part of the necessary pad and push it down. If it slides out you have a leak. 

Oh I know they're a thing, no question about that, but (and I'm asking this out of ignorance) wouldn't they affect every note, not just some?

fretmeister said:

I asked my eldest. She's a keen player.

Her main response was that the upper register is shit anyway so play in the money range in the mids and lows. 

 

I have sympathy with that, but the occasional note at the top of the stave is essential to most tunes, unfortunately.

I said this to her.

Her response was.... Dad, I think you need to consider getting me a bass clarinet instead.


So - thanks for that!