Help with transcribing - Is there something wrong with my ears?

allen

I try to transcribe songs on and off and I'm pretty slow at it, but I have got better over time.

I enjoy it and plenty of accomplished players say that it is an important part of your development as a player so I do one song every couple of months.

So the other day I sit down to transcribe 'Love Story' by Taylor Swift. (When I say transcribe, I just mean get the chords - not all the fiddly bits)

Within about 10 seconds I got the fact that it's in D major. Some parts were easier than others, but it took about 15 minutes to get the verse progression. I knew that it was likely to be a I IV V vi progression in some order or other and that's how it sounded to my ears so I rearranged those for a bit while listening to the song, but wasn't quite getting it.

After a while I decided that the opening verse was D / Bm / G / A. (it actually ends slightly differently for the 2 verses, but let's say it was that). The trouble is when I went to check the 'official' tab at ultimate-guitar the progression goes D / A / Bm / (G or A depending on which verse)

Anyway when I play along with the record I can play it both ways and it sounds in harmony, but surely something is wrong with my ears.

I tried to see whether the notes in common in the Bm and G were tricking my ear, but I don't think that was it.

My question is: Is this just a normal mistake of transcription or is there something else going on here?

Here's the song for ease

Roland

My instinctive response, before looking at it or listening to the song, is that the transcription on Ultimate Guitar is wrong. A quick glance confirms that: https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/tab/taylor-swift/love-story-tabs-802300. The chord names shown are just one person’s view. There are other interpretations.

viz

It's D - G - Bm - A (or G). This is called a 1465. It becomes clear in V2 when the bass comes in.

It's a bit more obvious if you capo at the 2nd fret which is probably what the guitarist is doing, judging by the actual notes played and the way they ring out (is Taylor Swift the guitarist or is it someone else? Do they use a capo, do you know?)

Anyway, then he/she's basically playing open chords in the style of C - F - Am - G (or F), with open strings on the top string, and all transposed up a tone with the capo.


When you get these sparse chords with 2nds or 6ths or 7ths, played in inversion, and without a definitive bass note, they can be ambiguous because there are so many shared notes. The most common ambiguity is whether a major chord is actually that, or its relative minor (3 semitones down), or its iii chord (4 frets up). And the vice versa is true too, what one person hears as a minor chord might be the major chord 4 frets down. So a IV-V-I can be ambiguous with a ii-V-I or a vi-V-I, for example. And a I-IV-vi-V might sound like a I-ii-IV-V. They're almost the same progression, especially if you miss out a note or two.


So in this song, it's a I-IV-vi-V (or IV). The 1465.

But you'd be forgiven for thinking it's a I-ii-vi-V (D - Em - Bm - A) or I-vi-IV-V (D - Bm - G - A) or anything else similar.
 

digitalkettle

Roland said:

My instinctive response, before looking at it or listening to the song, is that the transcription on Ultimate Guitar is wrong.

Solid rule of thumb here

allen

viz said:

It's D - G - Bm - A (or G). This is called a 1465. It becomes clear in V2 when the bass comes in.

It's a bit more obvious if you capo at the 2nd fret which is probably what the guitarist is doing, judging by the actual notes played and the way they ring out (is Taylor Swift the guitarist or is it someone else? Do they use a capo, do you know?)

Anyway, then he/she's basically playing open chords in the style of C - F - Am - G (or F), with open strings on the top string, and all transposed up a tone with the capo.


When you get these sparse chords with 2nds or 6ths or 7ths, played in inversion, and without a definitive bass note, they can be ambiguous because there are so many shared notes. The most common ambiguity is whether a major chord is actually that, or its relative minor (3 semitones down), or its iii chord (4 frets up). And the vice versa is true too, what one person hears as a minor chord might be the major chord 4 frets down. So a IV-V-I can be ambiguous with a ii-V-I or a vi-V-I, for example. And a I-IV-vi-V might sound like a I-ii-IV-V. They're almost the same progression, especially if you miss out a note or two.


So in this song, it's a I-IV-vi-V (or IV). The 1465.

But you'd be forgiven for thinking it's a I-ii-vi-V (D - Em - Bm - A) or I-vi-IV-V (D - Bm - G - A) or anything else similar.
 

Thank you. Very interesting.

I'm very aware of the major/relative minor relationship and was looking for it, but that would have implied I would hear an Em instead of the G. 

I'm not sure whether you were generalising, but I do hear a 6th on D at some moments and can sense some general ambiguity which I would assume is due to the points you raise on inversions etc.

So the reason for the question was not because I was hearing the ii (relative minor of the real chord), but because I was hearing the vi of the key (which doesn't share any notes with the correct chord). I think you have said that it's 'understandable' (which is reassuring), but I'm not sure why.

viz

Yeah, you weren't confusing the relative major/minor. Basically you were doing a 1645 instead of a 1465. So you heard a vi when the IV was playing, and the IV when the vi was playing.

So it's this part:

viz said:

The most common ambiguity is whether a major chord is actually that, or its relative minor (3 semitones down), or its iii chord (4 frets up). And the vice versa is true too, what one person hears as a minor chord might be the major chord 4 frets down. 

It's really easy to confuse a major chord with the minor chord 4 frets up, and vice versa. These aren't relative major/minor, but they're really related. Maybe cousins rather than brother/sister Because Gmaj7 has GBDF#, and Bm has BDF#. So VERY close. 

allen

Thanks, that's reassuring.

So how do I fix this? Presumably more practice?

viz

Practise singing what you reckon the bassist would play, that's an excellent way of building your harmonic understanding, knowing what the chords are. Just hum the bass notes when you're listening to music.

Also understanding the harmonic rules, for example often you hear a chord based off the semitone below the tonic (for example in this case C#dim), but it's more often than not actually a V7 chord with the bottom note missing (in this case an A7 in 1st inversion). There's millions of little bits of info like that, all of which hang together to create an overall sense of possibilities and probabilities.

Also hearing the voicings of the chords. I could immediately tell that she was playing C shaped and Fmaj7 shaped open chords *, but I also knew it was in D not C (because I've got perfect pitch), and so I knew it would probably be capo'd, and my mind's eye could see how it was being fingered, and I just knew that it was D (C shape), then Gmaj7 (Fmaj7 shape), then Bm (Am shape), then A (G shape). You can just hear the chord shapes by how the chords sound. 

(* because the C-shaped open chord is the only one with the 1, 3, 5 and 8 that has a 3 at the top instead of a 1 like the G chord; and the Fmaj7 open chord is the only one with the 1, 3, 5, maj7 and no 3 on the top. That sort of thing you just get to instantly recognise over time.)

allen

Thanks!

Blueingreen

viz said:

It's D - G - Bm - A (or G). This is called a 1465. It becomes clear in V2 when the bass comes in.

 Just to reinforce this, I think it's worth emphasising is that this is a popular arrangement technique: a first verse or intro is played without bass and then the bass comes in on what is clearly the same chord pattern in the next section.  And you'll usually find it much easier to work out the chords from the section with the bass in it.  If I had been learning this song I'd have gone straight to the second verse, where the bass notes (and roots of the chord) are easy to hear.

Danny1969

This song has a more than one sequence, the intro for example implies 1 - 5 - 6 - 4  ... with what I call the Brightside trick .. the added 9 of the D repeated while the chord changes 
So to learn it properly you need to go over it bit by bit if you want to get it back on

guitarjack66

allen said:

I try to transcribe songs on and off and I'm pretty slow at it, but I have got better over time.

I enjoy it and plenty of accomplished players say that it is an important part of your development as a player so I do one song every couple of months.

So the other day I sit down to transcribe 'Love Story' by Taylor Swift. (When I say transcribe, I just mean get the chords - not all the fiddly bits)

Within about 10 seconds I got the fact that it's in D major. Some parts were easier than others, but it took about 15 minutes to get the verse progression. I knew that it was likely to be a I IV V vi progression in some order or other and that's how it sounded to my ears so I rearranged those for a bit while listening to the song, but wasn't quite getting it.

After a while I decided that the opening verse was D / Bm / G / A. (it actually ends slightly differently for the 2 verses, but let's say it was that). The trouble is when I went to check the 'official' tab at ultimate-guitar the progression goes D / A / Bm / (G or A depending on which verse)

Anyway when I play along with the record I can play it both ways and it sounds in harmony, but surely something is wrong with my ears.

I tried to see whether the notes in common in the Bm and G were tricking my ear, but I don't think that was it.

My question is: Is this just a normal mistake of transcription or is there something else going on here?

Here's the song for ease

Just listening to the first few bars of that song( not my personal taste) but is that a banjo or mandolin,or just maybe some muting of the strings going on? Seems to have a 'country' vibe to it. 
Disclaimer; I've never listened to a Taylor Swift song so have no idea of her genre but 'country pop' jumps out at my untrained ear.

allen

For some reason Taylor Swift is very popular. She's pretty A list in the pop world at the moment is my perception.

The interweb says that she is genre-busting, but I would agree with you and say country-pop if that's a thing. Although I perceive a big country influence in american popular music in general.

I generally don't get her songs to be honest.

digitalkettle

allen said:

For some reason Taylor Swift is very popular. She's pretty A list in the pop world at the moment is my perception.

The interweb says that she is genre-busting, but I would agree with you and say country-pop if that's a thing. Although I perceive a big country influence in american popular music in general.

I generally don't get her songs to be honest.

This is my favourite Taylor Swift album:

guitarjack66

allen said:

For some reason Taylor Swift is very popular. She's pretty A list in the pop world at the moment is my perception.

The interweb says that she is genre-busting, but I would agree with you and say country-pop if that's a thing. Although I perceive a big country influence in american popular music in general.

I generally don't get her songs to be honest.

In my view 'Country Pop' would probably define likes of the much maligned Achey Breaky Heart or Dance the Night away by The Mavericks to me. I think the 'Pop' part would indicate some mainstream sound given how Country Music is a bit of a niche sound overall. My late Dad was a Country and Western fan but the 'Western' part seems to have been dropped in recent times. Possibly because Nashville seems to be the Mecca of modern country and may not want to be regarded as Western? I have no idea really but thought the older Country stuff was certainly more listenable than the modern version to me.

PAL

First off I'm old school so don't do TABs. Any way you are right the key is D . The song is play on a banjo or uke and from what I can here it goes like this...
Play the D chord but leave the top E string open all the time this will be a D5
Hold that chord and then play an E note on the D string second fret this is an Asus4
Next move the E note on the D string up a whole step to F# this will be Bm13
Then the last chord is in theory a G but all you do is fret the D note on the B string (third fret)
The other chord in there is an Asus this is played after the Bm minor so it goes Bm Asus A
I hope this makes sense I'm sure others will chip in an help or correct me.
The main thing to listen to in this song is the way it's picked once you have that it will fall into place.
Keep at it it will get easier and you will get there. Good Luck.

PS. I did work the solo out it's played on violins etc !

allen

Thanks!

viz

Edit - actually u might be right about the banjo. 

But this is how you can do it on the guitar. Badly, mind you. 

https://youtu.be/1qdOtQOGJxg

digitalkettle

If you dig out the version of 'Love Story' from the 'Fearless' album, there ain't no cotton-picking banjo!

allen

viz said:

Edit - actually u might be right about the banjo. 

But this is how you can do it on the guitar. Badly, mind you. 

https://youtu.be/1qdOtQOGJxg

Very good. I think someone earlier said that she is putting a capo on 2 and then playing some fairly simple open chords.

allen

To be honest, this wasn't a thread about the song, more about trying to work out why I was fairly convinced of the wrong chords.

Maybe we ought to have a weekly simple song transcription thread?