Numbering system

lincolnblue

I have been playing guitar for years and years but never been taught the numbering system i.e. 1 chord, 4 chord etc. It's something that I want to improve on but don't know where best to start. I can work it out if I am in say E then I know that A is the 4 and B is the 5 but my head doesn't work quick enough yet to know it.

If I look on Youtube there are so many videos I don't know were to begin. Can anyone recommend a good resource for learning this element of theory?

Tannin

MAJOR KEY

1, 4, and 5 are major. Very easy to remember - just play a blues change in your head - those are the three major chords. 

2, 3, and 6 are minor. Also easy because they are all the chords that aren't the "blues chords".

- except 7, which is half-diminished. 

In EVERY key, there is one and only one of each letter - one A, one B, one C and so on. Never two of them. Of course, depending on the key, there may be one or more sharps or flats, but you can ignore while you count up (e.g.) E, F, G to get the 3 chord, only then saying "and I'm in the key of E, so that G is going to be a G#".


MINOR KEY

There are two ways to remember the minor key chords. You can (i) learn them in a similar way to the major chord outline above, or you can (ii) simply remember that they are exactly the same chords as the relative major key. 

If you use method (i) you have to remember two different sequences. If you use method (ii) you only have to remember the  first one but then translate it because you are starting in a different place. (E.g., A minor is exactly the same as C major only you start on the 6 chord (Am) which is the minor key's 1 chord. 

It is helpful to remember that the 1, 4, and 5 chords in ALL keys (major or minor) are the same sort as the key itself - i.e., the 1, 4, and 5 chords in any major are always major, and the  1, 4, and 5 chords in any minor key are always minor. 

lincolnblue

Tannin said:

MAJOR KEY

1, 4, and 5 are major. Very easy to remember - just play a blues change in your head - those are the three major chords. 

2, 3, and 6 are minor. Also easy because they are all the chords that aren't the "blues chords".

- except 7, which is half-diminished. 

In EVERY key, there is one and only one of each letter - one A, one B, one C and so on. Never two of them. Of course, depending on the key, there may be one or more sharps or flats, but you can ignore while you count up (e.g.) E, F, G to get the 3 chord, only then saying "and I'm in the key of E, so that G is going to be a G#".


MINOR KEY

There are two ways to remember the minor key chords. You can (i) learn them in a similar way to the major chord outline above, or you can (ii) simply remember that they are exactly the same chords as the relative major key. 

If you use method (i) you have to remember two different sequences. If you use method (ii) you only have to remember the  first one but then translate it because you are starting in a different place. (E.g., A minor is exactly the same as C major only you start on the 6 chord (Am) which is the minor key's 1 chord. 

It is helpful to remember that the 1, 4, and 5 chords in ALL keys (major or minor) are the same sort as the key itself - i.e., the 1, 4, and 5 chords in any major are always major, and the  1, 4, and 5 chords in any minor key are always minor. 

Thank you - that is really helpful - I''ll spend some time getting my head around it

Danny1969

If you know all the notes on the fretboard you can use the strings to help you with basic 4ths and 5ths. 

Ignoring the B string relative to the G ...  guitar strings are tuned a 4th in one direction and a 5th in the reverse direction. 

A string is a 5th of the D string but the D string is a 4th of the A string etc

What helped me though was constantly practicing transposing songs. Take any song that works with a simple chord structure and transpose it into another key ... just keep practicing making sure you don't ignore the sharp and flat keys as well. 
It soon becomes 2nd nature 

lincolnblue

Danny1969 said:

If you know all the notes on the fretboard you can use the strings to help you with basic 4ths and 5ths. 

Ignoring the B string relative to the G ...  guitar strings are tuned a 4th in one direction and a 5th in the reverse direction. 

A string is a 5th of the D string but the D string is a 4th of the A string etc

What helped me though was constantly practicing transposing songs. Take any song that works with a simple chord structure and transpose it into another key ... just keep practicing making sure you don't ignore the sharp and flat keys as well. 
It soon becomes 2nd nature 

Thanks for that. I am generally good in transposing and so know what chords go in what key. If I'm doing a song in E and need to drop it to D for example, I can do that. It's just getting my head around the theory of the numbers. 

viz

Start with notes of the major scale, not chords. I mean, you’re already far down the chord route anyway, which is brill, but just go back to the major scale and learn how to name the notes. 1st, 2nd. 3rd. 4th, 5th. 6th, 7th, 8th. 

then learn their key-agnostic names:

tonic
supertonic
mediant
subdominant
dominant
sub-mediant
leading-tone
tonic. 

They all sound different, with respect to their interval from the tonic. Each name actually means something. Tonic means it’s “The Tone”, the fundamental tone at the base of everything. Supertonic means it’s above the tonic. Mediant means it’s between the tonic and the dominant. The subdominant is below the dominant. The Dominant is the 2nd most important note in the scale. If Tonic is the King in chess, Dominant is the  Queen. Submediant is like mediant but it’s below the tonic not above it. Leading-tone is the major 7th that leads up to the tonic. Really simple. Just learn those 7 and what they sound like. 

Then go back to chords. 

HAL9000

It’s known as The Nashville numbering system and was originally developed as an aid for transcribing and transposing. By using Roman numerals you can describe both major and minor chords by using  upper or lower case. So for the key of C...

C    I
Dm ii
Em iii 
F    IV
G   V
Am vi 
Bm vii

...as you can see the 4 chord is shown as IV. If it was shown as iv then the chord would be Fm.

Lewy

lincolnblue said:

 I can work it out if I am in say E then I know that A is the 4 and B is the 5 but my head doesn't work quick enough yet to know it.

It's a bit like learning your times tables - you start learning them by working them out, using an abacus and counting blocks etc, but really fluidity comes from just memorising them.

It's a lot easier on guitar because you can just learn relative chord shapes when you're starting out i.e. if you're in the key of A you know that I is an E shape barre chord at the 5th fret, ii is a Em shape barre chord two frets up from your I, iii is an Am bare chord one fret down from your I etc etc Those will just be some options but they'll get you out of the shit when you're playing and someone yells "go to the three!" on a song you don't know (which is kind of the reason the system evolved in the first place).

UnclePsychosis

You need to learn your major scales. Its much easier to do this in single tones (i.e. a scale) and then extend it to chord theory rather than trying to learn chord theory without knowing the scales---scales are the building blocks of chords. 

Danny1969

HAL9000 said:

It’s known as The Nashville numbering system and was originally developed as an aid for transcribing and transposing. By using Roman numerals you can describe both major and minor chords by using  upper or lower case. So for the key of C...

C    I
Dm ii
Em iii 
F    IV
G   V
Am vi 
Bm vii

...as you can see the 4 chord is shown as IV. If it was shown as iv then the chord would be Fm.

These days I don't think anyone bothers with roman numerals. They aren't taught as part of the main curriculum, although they might be taught in history or latin. None of my school age students knew what they were so it seemed pointless for me to use them to teach. 

The  Nashville chart I'm familiar with is something like 1 - 5 - 6m -  4      The m  =. minor with a half bar being underlined and 2 chords sharing a bar written together like 6/5

PAL

Lots of good advice has been given. The reason for the number system as used in Nashville is when doing sessions
  you get the key of the song and then use the number system if the key needs to be changed you just try another key
  the numbers stay the same unless a part is rewritten . Can sound complicated but as someone mentioned if you played a
  basic blues ( 3 chords ) it's not too difficult so you are on your way to the number system you just need to fill in the gaps
  and it will all make sense. Hope this helps.

  https://www.premierguitar.com/lessons/chords/nashville-number-system

Teleman

I can’t help with a specific resource, but anything explaining triads and how they’re formed may help. As others have suggested, knowing scales will help massively. When I was learning these things, I found it useful to pick one key and explore that (with an instrument) until it started to make sense and feel familiar, and then move on to another key. 

My iPad is messing me about, so I can’t quote others’ posts but:

Re: the subdominant - it’s convenient to think of the subdominant as the note below the dominant, but strictly, it’s a fifth below the tonic.

Re: Roman numerals - these are taught in primary schools as part of the maths curriculum!

steveb

Have a look at this book. Its good.

Song Charting Made Easy: A Play-Along Guide to the Nashville Number System (Play-along Guides) https://amzn.eu/d/fsiEM9Z

guitarjack66

Surely that once you understand your major scale its just that number/scale degree or interval with a flat or a sharp and major or minor next to it? I realise that as per above where 1 4 or 5. could be major and 2 3 or 6 could be minor and 7 diminished generally, that these could be altered too?

mrkb

viz said:

Start with notes of the major scale, not chords. I mean, you’re already far down the chord route anyway, which is brill, but just go back to the major scale and learn how to name the notes. 1st, 2nd. 3rd. 4th, 5th. 6th, 7th, 8th. 

then learn their key-agnostic names:

tonic
supertonic
mediant
subdominant
dominant
sub-mediant
leading-tone
tonic. 

They all sound different, with respect to their interval from the tonic. Each name actually means something. Tonic means it’s “The Tone”, the fundamental tone at the base of everything. Supertonic means it’s above the tonic. Mediant means it’s between the tonic and the dominant. The subdominant is below the dominant. The Dominant is the 2nd most important note in the scale. If Tonic is the King in chess, Dominant is the  Queen. Submediant is like mediant but it’s below the tonic not above it. Leading-tone is the major 7th that leads up to the tonic. Really simple. Just learn those 7 and what they sound like. 

Then go back to chords. 

Thanks for that info, hadn’t heard it out that way before.

 What’s the practical application of those words though? I’ve never heard anyone refer to playing a mediant chord in any situation, so I’m struggling to understand why it’s useful to know.

Snags

mrkb said:

 What’s the practical application of those words though? I’ve never heard anyone refer to playing a mediant chord in any situation, so I’m struggling to understand why it’s useful to know.

Passing your Grade 5 theory for the Associated Board

IME you wouldn't really use them to describe playing chords. They're descriptors for the notes at those positions in the scale. And even then, you'd generally only use them in a fairly formal or academic setting/discussion, rather than a casual conversation or in a rehearsal. However, they are descriptive, so help with understanding the musical relationship between the notes in the scale.

viz

mrkb said:

viz said:

Start with notes of the major scale, not chords. I mean, you’re already far down the chord route anyway, which is brill, but just go back to the major scale and learn how to name the notes. 1st, 2nd. 3rd. 4th, 5th. 6th, 7th, 8th. 

then learn their key-agnostic names:

tonic
supertonic
mediant
subdominant
dominant
sub-mediant
leading-tone
tonic. 

They all sound different, with respect to their interval from the tonic. Each name actually means something. Tonic means it’s “The Tone”, the fundamental tone at the base of everything. Supertonic means it’s above the tonic. Mediant means it’s between the tonic and the dominant. The subdominant is below the dominant. The Dominant is the 2nd most important note in the scale. If Tonic is the King in chess, Dominant is the  Queen. Submediant is like mediant but it’s below the tonic not above it. Leading-tone is the major 7th that leads up to the tonic. Really simple. Just learn those 7 and what they sound like. 

Then go back to chords. 

Thanks for that info, hadn’t heard it out that way before.

 What’s the practical application of those words though? I’ve never heard anyone refer to playing a mediant chord in any situation, so I’m struggling to understand why it’s useful to know.

It’s just the name of the note. Like we’ve got 3 children but we’ve given them names instead of calling them 1, 2 and 3. In music, the 3rd note sounds different from the 4th, or 5th or whatever, and by giving it a name, you’re making it distinctive, and maybe easier to assign their sound, their “function” to them.

digitalkettle

guitarjack66 said:

Surely that once you understand your major scale its just that number/scale degree or interval with a flat or a sharp and major or minor next to it? I realise that as per above where 1 4 or 5. could be major and 2 3 or 6 could be minor and 7 diminished generally, that these could be altered too?

Remember that, once you start talking seventh chords, the chord on the seventh degree is half diminished.

Also, whilst the definition of 'altered' is where you start swapping diatonic notes for non-diatonic notes, it's mostly used when describing dominant chords (probably functioning dominant chords)...specifically sharpening/flattening 5ths and 9ths.

guitarjack66

digitalkettle said:

guitarjack66 said:

Surely that once you understand your major scale its just that number/scale degree or interval with a flat or a sharp and major or minor next to it? I realise that as per above where 1 4 or 5. could be major and 2 3 or 6 could be minor and 7 diminished generally, that these could be altered too?

Remember that, once you start talking seventh chords, the chord on the seventh degree is half diminished.

Also, whilst the definition of 'altered' is where you start swapping diatonic notes for non-diatonic notes, it's mostly used when describing dominant chords (probably functioning dominant chords)...specifically sharpening/flattening 5ths and 9ths.

Thank you. I know the basics and how a 9th,11th,13th etc are spoken about by simply adding 7 to the appropriate degree of the scale but that dimished/half diminished theory has always been a bit hazy for me. Also,I had only heard of dominant 5ths and 7ths previously and didnt know there were other variants.

digitalkettle

guitarjack66 said:

digitalkettle said:

guitarjack66 said:

Surely that once you understand your major scale its just that number/scale degree or interval with a flat or a sharp and major or minor next to it? I realise that as per above where 1 4 or 5. could be major and 2 3 or 6 could be minor and 7 diminished generally, that these could be altered too?

Remember that, once you start talking seventh chords, the chord on the seventh degree is half diminished.

Also, whilst the definition of 'altered' is where you start swapping diatonic notes for non-diatonic notes, it's mostly used when describing dominant chords (probably functioning dominant chords)...specifically sharpening/flattening 5ths and 9ths.

Thank you. I know the basics and how a 9th,11th,13th etc are spoken about by simply adding 7 to the appropriate degree of the scale but that dimished/half diminished theory has always been a bit hazy for me. Also,I had only heard of dominant 5ths and 7ths previously and didnt know there were other variants.

As a starting point, it might help to look at building chords up by harmonising the major scale, i.e. stacking 3rds on each degree of the scale...

Just the roots:
C D E F G A B

Add the 3rd:
CE DF EG FA GB AC BD ... so that's major, minor, minor, major, major, minor, minor

Add the 5th:
CEG DFA EGB FAC GBD ACE BDF ... so that's major, minor, minor, major, major, minor, diminished

Add the 7th:
CEGB DFAC EGBD FACE GBDF ACEG BDFA ... so that's maj7, min7, min7, maj7, dom7, min7, min7b5 (half diminished)

Add the 9th:
CEGBD DFACE EGBDF FACEG GBDFA ACEGB BDFAC ... so that's maj9, min9, min7b9, maj9, dom9, min9, min7b5b9

Keep going with the 11ths and then the 13ths.

So...

No 'dominant 5th'...the only dominant chord in the harmonisation of the major scale is the dominant 7th which builds up on the fifth degree of the scale (stack another 3rd on top and you get the dominant 9th...then 11th...then 13th)...all down to that 1 3 5 b7 formula.

No fully diminished chord here either...you have to harmonise the harmonic minor scale to build that one.

viz

guitarjack66 said:

digitalkettle said:

guitarjack66 said:

Surely that once you understand your major scale its just that number/scale degree or interval with a flat or a sharp and major or minor next to it? I realise that as per above where 1 4 or 5. could be major and 2 3 or 6 could be minor and 7 diminished generally, that these could be altered too?

Remember that, once you start talking seventh chords, the chord on the seventh degree is half diminished.

Also, whilst the definition of 'altered' is where you start swapping diatonic notes for non-diatonic notes, it's mostly used when describing dominant chords (probably functioning dominant chords)...specifically sharpening/flattening 5ths and 9ths.

Thank you. I know the basics and how a 9th,11th,13th etc are spoken about by simply adding 7 to the appropriate degree of the scale but that dimished/half diminished theory has always been a bit hazy for me. Also,I had only heard of dominant 5ths and 7ths previously and didnt know there were other variants.

There's no such thing as a dominant 5th, but I know why you've said that:

The 5th note of the major scale is called the Dominant note, and its chord (which is a major chord) is called the Dominant chord. In C major, that would be a G chord.

If you choose to add the 7th on that chord, the note would be a minor 7th not a major 7th. We've come to call the 5 chord with its major 3rd and minor 7th, a Dominant 7th chord, because it's built off the 5th note of the scale ("Dominant"), and it has a (minor) 7th in it ("7th"). Hence "Dominant 7th". No other 7th chord in the harmonised major scale has a major 3rd and a minor 7th.

Then (wrongly, but it doesn't matter), we've started calling any old chord with a major 3rd and a minor 7th, a Dominant 7th chord. So in a blues in E, you might have E7 A7 and B7. People call all 3 chords Dominant 7th chords, because they all sound like one, but really only the B7 is, because only the B is the 5th note of the E scale. I don't think that matters, though it does tend to dilute / confuse the meaning of the word "Dominant" in peoples' minds.

Summary: the word Dominant is because of the position of the chord, not because of the 7th in it. But it so happens that only that specific chord has that particular arrangement of notes). So people call lots of identical chords a dominant 7th.



Edit: Oh. DK said what I just said, only more efficiently.