Flat top or archtop?

carlos

I'm old enough now to own a steel string acoustic (again). I prefer Gibson scale (25" or under), flat or very flat radius, good upper fret access. I know nothing about woods, solid or laminate or whatever.

Used to own a Peerless Manhattan which was good but I'm ready to spend a bit more money now. I've also had a dreadnought which was alright but with no cutaway I found it a bit limiting.

What should I look for? Given the specs above am I stuck in archtop land? Or are there flat tops similar to that? I think I prefer the sound of a flat top overall, brighter and maybe more percussive but please teach me.

bertie

carlos said:

I'm old enough now to own a steel string acoustic 

what's that meant to mean ? 


archtops and "flat" tops are two totally different tonal beasts and absolutely nothing to do with or lack of "upper fret access" 

carlos

bertie said:

carlos said:

I'm old enough now to own a steel string acoustic 

what's that meant to mean ? 

Why are so many people so aggressive in this forum. What did I do to you?

bertie

carlos said:

bertie said:

carlos said:

I'm old enough now to own a steel string acoustic 

what's that meant to mean ? 

Why are so many people so aggressive in this forum. What did I do to you?

why not just explain it then ?  WTF has age got to do with owning an acoustic unless you deliberately set out to cause reaction ?

carlos

It was a light-hearted comment that I've gone through the electric phase, and now want something more restrained, without the gain, fx, etc. I thought this was a common thing to say. Also have a bit more cash to spend on something nice.

As for tone, this is the sort of thing I've been playing.
https://www.allmusic.com/album/teresa-de-avila-mw0003475451/credits

I think this is 3 flat tops but with this personnel it could easily be 1 classical and 2 archtops. That's why I'm being somewhat agnostic about it.

bertie

OK -   " clinks gin glass of peace"  



by nature archtops have minimal or no bracing but are  often "thick" or even ply   - and IMHO nowhere near as resonant as flat tops,  or as you say, not as responsive (or even dull !) acoustically, but pretty much all body sizes of "flat tops" come as cut-aways  these days,  some quite "severe" giving access quite high (in acoustic terms) depending on how far up you want to reach

carlos

Cheers.

Why are so many flat tops with a cutaway also electro-acoustic instruments, i.e. w/ built-in pickup, eq, etc. I'm guessing this effects tone as well. I was quite comfortable with my 17" body archtop. I found it very comfortable as I could lean on it! What's a similar acoustic size?

Tannin

I'm no expert on archtops @carlos (but would like to learn more - I reckon there is one in my future one of these days). I do know a few things. 

Acoustic archtops are as rare as hens teeth. You'll see any number of electric instruments with hollow bodies, but very, very few actual acoustic archtop guitars. You can play those electric instruments without plugging them in, but you are not going to get a decent sound out of them. They are thin-bodied or heavily built, or more usually both. They are designed to resist feedback when amplified, not to make a nice sound.

(Your Peerless Manhattan is an example - it probably has a better acoustic sound than most (it is a fairly big body with a sensibly placed pickup) but it was  made to be amplified. It has a laminated body. Building for acoustic tone, solid wood is preferred.)

Actual made-for-purpose acoustic archtops are very rare, and usually very expensive. I was about to say that Eastman is one of the few regular (non-boutique) manufacturers still building them, but looking on their site I can't find any. I hope they haven't stopped making them.

Archtops traditionally have a fairly specific sound - what I uncharitably call "flub flub". More technically, they have a rounded attack envelope with little sustain. If you want to sound like Freddie Green, that is perfect, but it doesn't suit most other styles. (Some, but not all, of this characteristic sound is down to the flatwound strings usually fitted to them.)

Something like (wild guess!) 20% of all acoustics have a short scale, so you'll have a pretty fair number to choose from. Most Gibsons (obviously) but also a lot of small and medium-body guitars of many makes. Most of the non-dreadnought Martins, for example, have short scales. And you will get (in my view) better tone and balance from a mid-size instrument. Any size or shape guitar can make a good sound, but I reckon you get more good 'uns in the mid-range. In short, there should be plenty of choice as regards short scale acoustics. 

As for radius, I have no idea. It's not something I have ever been at all tuned into, or even noticed except for a few seconds when picking up a (flat) classical for the first time. 

carlos

@Tannin ;
Thank you, that helps a lot. The Peerless was loud, but had little sustain and a very middle-ish tone, i.e. not a lot of highs and lows. Even w/ only a floating pickup and a big body, I could tell it was made to be played through the pickup.

I don't want to sound like Freddie Green, jazz of that kind is not for me. 

carlos

I should mention I'm a hybrid picker, i.e. pick and m a c fingers. I can do this fine on an electric so I don't think I need a wide nut or string separation at bridge.

ICBM

If you play ‘normal’ fingerstyle, lightly strummed or a combination of the two you don’t want an archtop - they don’t sound right at all for that, they’re very percussive and need to played quite hard with a pick, for jazz (or at least jazz-ish) sharply defined chording and solos. They were designed to be loud in a band mix played like that, and they are, but actually quieter than a flat-top when played gently, and with less sustain.

It’s a real problem finding a cutaway acoustic without electrics now - just about every manufacturer assumes you want both together. You may have to find a small builder who is willing to do one - unlikely a large company will, or at least not for a sensible price... I once enquired about it with a Taylor, and they wanted much more than for the standard model. I’m not a fan of onboard preamps either, although I use pickups - I prefer to keep the electronics offboard. You may have to find one with some sort of pickup system but without the plastic box in the side, and remove it - I’ve done that to two of mine.

If you want a 17” body that really restricts you to jumbos - most have longer scale lengths, but they do exist with cutaways and 24-3/4” scales, in fact this https://www.andertons.co.uk/gibson-montana-j-185-ec-modern-walnut-electro-acoustic-guitar-antique-natural-mcjb85wlan is probably pretty close to what you’re looking for... it does have electrics, but only internally mounted with no plastic box - it’s a Baggs with just a volume control under the edge of the soundhole and a battery holder on the neck block - these are the same systems I’ve removed from mine.

(Some people will ask why I removed such an unintrusive system - it’s because I use outboard modelling preamps, and the best-sounding, lowest noise source for those is a plain passive undersaddle pickup. I just don’t want batteries and other junk in my guitar either.)

carlos

@ICBM ;;
Thanks, that helps. I own, and know how to operate, a Helix. What's the simplest system I can use to get a signal out to the Helix to add a bit of reverb, etc? I guess I can always mic it and run the XLR into the Helix, but it'd be simpler to not need a mic, I think.

I think between all the contributions in this thread I've got a solid grasp on what I'm looking for.

drofluf

What’s your budget?

carlos

drofluf said:

What’s your budget?

Under 2 grand

Tannin

Just for fun, I jumped over to Guitar Guitar and looked at what they had in the  £1500 - £2000 range, thinking good, general-purpose guitar, not too big (@carlos is coming from electricland after all, a big dreadnought probably won't feel too comfortable), not too specialised (i.e., spruce or cedar top, not all-mahogany, all-Koa or all-Blackwood), cutaway for upper fret access, all solid. Shouldn't be too hard, right? 

Wrong.

I immediately picked out several prospects: Taylor 312s and 414s are excellent guitars, probably undervalued in acousticland, they are beautifully set up and very playable, outstanding quality control, un-crazy prices, and a good, all-round,, play-any-style sort of sound. Cole Clarks are a mixed bag but it would be hard to dislike an Angel in redwood and Blackwood - that redwood top provides a softness and approachability many of their others lack. A Maton SRS-808C stands out as a bit of a hidden gem - it is the only Maton this side of three-times-the-price hand made Custom Shop models to have a cedar top and would be another great choice as an all-round-capable only guitar. And a lovely looking Furch Green in Sitka Spruce and Indian Rosewood if you want that nothing-else-is-like-it rosewood sound. 

Obvious choices, I thought. If you can't be happy with any of those, you are hard to please. 

And then I remembered about scale length. These are all standard scale instruments - the Furch is 650mm, everything else 648mm. You want something around 635mm. Ouch!

That pretty much means Gibsons. In this price range we have the J-185 at 629mm ... but a jumbo! And that is it! Nothing else to consider. Still, a jumbo, Sitka Spruce and walnut, you could do a lot worse than that. And if you played a 17" archtop once, a J-185 won't be too much of as shock.

And, back in long scale, I see they have a well-used made-in-Japan Takamine limited edition with a Malaysian Blackwood back and sides. Wow! Narrow nut and no cutaway, but that is a really special timber and by all that is holy ought to produce a really special sound.

Enough virtual shopping. The key takeaway here is that scale length is going to make things difficult.

(As an aside, and sadly off-topic, I don't really get the traditional string separation at the bridge thing for fingerpicking. It's another one of those things I seldom notice. Nut width is different - that I notice immediately and am fussy about.)

ICBM

carlos said:

Thanks, that helps. I own, and know how to operate, a Helix. What's the simplest system I can use to get a signal out to the Helix to add a bit of reverb, etc? I guess I can always mic it and run the XLR into the Helix, but it'd be simpler to not need a mic, I think.

Simplest is probably a magnetic soundhole pickup. A passive piezo undersaddle pickup won't work well with the Helix, it's designed for electric guitar and is unlikely to have a higher impedance than 1Mohm - a piezo needs 10M usually.

A soundhole pickup can even be a quick-mount type like a Duncan Woody, so you can leave a trailing cable and not need to drill the guitar for an endpin jack - just put the pickup in when you need it.

If you would prefer something more permanent and/or invisible, a K&K contact transducer works perfectly and is fine with a 1M load, but it's a bit more involved to fit - although the included kit and instructions are very good, and it is a DIY-level job if you're handy with basic tools.

Winny_Pooh

From your requirements I'd recommend you try a few Taylors. Acoustic shopping should generally be done in person. You never know what will surprise you.

Where are you based?

carlos

Winny_Pooh said:

From your requirements I'd recommend you try a few Taylors. Acoustic shopping should generally be done in person. You never know what will surprise you.

Where are you based?

Ta. I live in Waltham Cross, EN8, J25 on the M25