Horns and Guitar

Acdeezee86

I'm fascinated by Cornell Dupree's playing and have been reading up on him.  He says somewhere that he started playing guitar by copying horn lines he would hear on records.  I've actually heard this often in reference to r&b/soul...the idea of 'playing the horns'.

Being completely ignorant about horn playing, I just wondered if anyone can shed some light on what this might mean in theory and practice.  I get the idea of using your ears (and trust me I am trying!) but what sort of things horn players do that guitarist might typically not?

By extension, playing piano on guitar? what might that look like?  iIsuppose interesting chord voicings might be part of it?

Examples always welcome. 

Roland

I’ll start with some simple things. 

Horns are monophonic, which is why you get a horn section rather than individual instruments. As a group they tend to avoid the root note of a chord, and play the notes which add colour to the overall sound. So 5th and 3rd of a chord, and maybe the the 7th and 9th. CAGED is a good approach for the guitarist to find suitable notes. For chords play diads (two notes) and triads (three notes) but avoiding the root note.

When you play guitar the strings are mainly strummed, giving small timing differences between notes. So to emulate a keyboard you need to pluck the notes fingerstyle as a classical guitarist would do. Keyboards also allow “close chording” where notes which are close together in a scale are also close together on the keyboard. A guitarist has to use wide finger stretches to achieve this. (Allan Holdsworth did a lot of this). So to play a 9th chord a pianist might play the root note with the left hand, and the 9th 3rd and 5th on adjacent keys with the right hand. Eg C major9 is C with the left hand, and D, E, and G with the right. The guitarist would find it easier to play C, E, G, and then the D higher up.

Acdeezee86

This is very helpful, thank you!

koneguitarist

Classic examples would be Chuck Berry copying rolling piano licks of Johnnie Johnson for Johnny B Goode. 

Caffeine_Vampire

Jimmie Vaughan of more recent years follows the same approach. 

Acdeezee86

Thanks, Will look into both

guitarjack66

I will say that modern pop/rock needs more horns and related instruments like a 'saxomophone' or trumpet/trombone/cornet etc. The great popular songs of the 60s/70s/80s and particularly the ska bands benefitted from that brass. I believe the brass and guitar sounds compliment each other greatly.

Stratavarious

I play in two soul and R&B outfits.. one with a full horns and BVs sections and one just me on guitar with bass and drums.. leaving it to me to get the sound/feel of the horns on guitar.

When doing same tunes with the small band I signal the horn stabs/runs on guitar..  so in simple terms.. a lot less on the regular beat rhythm playing and a lot more off time short staccato elements and the occasional long chords.. usually at the ends of phrases of transitions.  Horns are like decorations that pop in after vocal phrases or at bar starts/ends,   If you are strumming, it won’t sound the same.  Its all quite loose.. and I like it.

stickyfiddle

I bloody love playing horn parts - loads of little dyads and triads halfway up the neck. Sooooo much more interesting than just playing boggo strummed chords

GoFish

For playing like a piano, check out Blind Blake. He was one of the first to emuate the feel of a ragtime piano onto guitar, opening a whole world of syncopation that would find its way into John Hurt, Elizabeth Cotten etc.

axisus

Roland said:

I’ll start with some simple things. 

Horns are monophonic, which is why you get a horn section rather than individual instruments. As a group they tend to avoid the root note of a chord, and play the notes which add colour to the overall sound. So 5th and 3rd of a chord, and maybe the the 7th and 9th. CAGED is a good approach for the guitarist to find suitable notes. For chords play diads (two notes) and triads (three notes) but avoiding the root note.

When you play guitar the strings are mainly strummed, giving small timing differences between notes. So to emulate a keyboard you need to pluck the notes fingerstyle as a classical guitarist would do. Keyboards also allow “close chording” where notes which are close together in a scale are also close together on the keyboard. A guitarist has to use wide finger stretches to achieve this. (Allan Holdsworth did a lot of this). So to play a 9th chord a pianist might play the root note with the left hand, and the 9th 3rd and 5th on adjacent keys with the right hand. Eg C major9 is C with the left hand, and D, E, and G with the right. The guitarist would find it easier to play C, E, G, and then the D higher up.

You is clever!

Acdeezee86

Thanks all for the input - this is all really interesting and helpful. @Stratavarious any chance we can get some sound clips?