Fender PM-1 Mahogany

markj

Any forum members have any experience of these all solid Mahogany Dreadnoughts?

lovestrat74

No, but they are on offer at GG..

https://www.guitarguitar.co.uk/product/190219339576008--fender-pm-1-dreadnought-all-mahogany-ovangkol-fingerboard?utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Mega+Fender+Acoustic+Deal!&utm_campaign=EMAIL_FENDERPM1_2022_10_21&vgo_ee=0DTnOHY/vWXxUJUMrrNU92QOP8ZXmRzMvz3Yw+cA7gI=

markj

lovestrat74 said:

No, but they are on offer at GG..

https://www.guitarguitar.co.uk/product/190219339576008--fender-pm-1-dreadnought-all-mahogany-ovangkol-fingerboard?utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Mega+Fender+Acoustic+Deal!&utm_campaign=EMAIL_FENDERPM1_2022_10_21&vgo_ee=0DTnOHY/vWXxUJUMrrNU92QOP8ZXmRzMvz3Yw+cA7gI=

Hence the question.

ICBM

No, but in my limited experience of mahogany dreadnoughts in general it's like putting dark chocolate and shepherds pie together and expecting the result to taste great because the separate parts do.

BillDL

I haven't played or held the PM-1 mahogany guitar, but I did have the budget CD-60SCE (cutaway electric dreadnought) with laminated mahogany back and sides and solid mahogany top for about a year.  I also had the "concert" size/shaped non-cutaway non-electric equivalent CC-60S for a couple of months to set it up for somebody.  Given the cutaway laminated body of the CD-60SCE it's not really fair to compare it with the much better PM-1 that is the full bodied dreadnought with all solid woods, but I will say that I very much preferred the concert sized mahogany topped budget variant to the dreadnought.  They both sounded really nice, especially for the low cost, but the smaller bodied one sounded better to my ears.  Everybodys' ears and playing styles are different though.

I found the mahogany topped dreadnought in comparison with a spruce-topped mahogany-bodied dreadnought to be like listening to Morgan Freeman and then Denzel Washington.  they are both very easy to listen to for a long time but the mahogany top (Morgan) was more mellow, quieter spoken, and less "peaky" and dynamic than the spruce top (Denzel), but not all mahogany top guitars will sound the same.

The "Paramount" Fender acoustics are very well constructed, and I base this on the PM-2 all mahogany parlour guitar I played about 6 months ago.

The current £299 price for a new PM-1 is really good.  If you climb the prices from the budget Fender mahogany guitars you have the CD-60S for around £180 and then the CD-140SCE (still with laminated back and sides) for around £290.  You are getting a MUCH better guitar in the PM-1 for just about the same price as the cutaway electric CD-140SCE.

You will never really know if the guitar is for you without playing it, but if I was looking for another acoustic and had some money to spare i would certainly consider the PM-1 mahogany at that great price.

markj

Thanks for the comments. 
I'm not really an acoustic player even though I've had some great acoustics in the last few yrs. Martin HD 28 and a Martin 0015m that was solid Mahogany
The price of the Fender has caught my attention  because of the price.
I'm not near any guitar shops to try one so I would have to buy blind.

Dave_Mc

I haven't tried it, but I did email Fender a while back (like you, because of these deals!) and they weren't willing to specify exactly what mahogany they used. I.e. there's a pretty good chance it's not actually mahogany (your Martin probably was proper Honduras mahogany). That might not be as big of a deal with the spruce-topped ones, but with the all-mahogany ones...

Also I seem to remember trying one of the early Paramounts fairly soon after they were released head-to-head with a Furch and the Furch absolutely smoked it (and the Furch was a similar price to the Paramount back then, it would have been the equivalent of the Blue range now). The Paramounts may well be better now, and of course at this deal price they're about one third of the price of the Furch Blue range...

markj

I did like the warmth of the mahogany Martin that I had.
I

markj

Sorry my old I pad is playing up. Back to the Fender it sounds sweet on the videos and quite tempted.

Dave_Mc

I should also have added that just because it's not "genuine" mahogany doesn't mean it can't sound good- the vids I've seen did sound pretty good (though admittedly I'm listening with laptop speakers so I'm not sure how much that's telling me!)

earwighoney

Dave_Mc said:

I haven't tried it, but I did email Fender a while back (like you, because of these deals!) and they weren't willing to specify exactly what mahogany they used. 

I think they use Okoume for their Paramount Series guitars. It looks like it from the pictures.

Dave_Mc

earwighoney said:

Dave_Mc said:

I haven't tried it, but I did email Fender a while back (like you, because of these deals!) and they weren't willing to specify exactly what mahogany they used. 

I think they use Okoume for their Paramount Series guitars. It looks like it from the pictures.

That's what I was sort of suspecting too- I contacted Thomann a while back about some of the Harley Benton acoustics, and they said that they were Okoume- that's the solid wood series ones, the ones specced as "mahogany" (some are specced as being African mahogany).

Again, as I said, it's not necessarily a problem, and it may well sound great (it certainly looks pretty good). I'd just rather they'd use the right term and be more upfront about it. Okoume isn't even the same family as Honduran mahogany, let alone the same species!

earwighoney

Dave_Mc said:

earwighoney said:

Dave_Mc said:

I haven't tried it, but I did email Fender a while back (like you, because of these deals!) and they weren't willing to specify exactly what mahogany they used. 

I think they use Okoume for their Paramount Series guitars. It looks like it from the pictures.

That's what I was sort of suspecting too- I contacted Thomann a while back about some of the Harley Benton acoustics, and they said that they were Okoume- that's the solid wood series ones, the ones specced as "mahogany" (some are specced as being African mahogany).

Again, as I said, it's not necessarily a problem, and it may well sound great (it certainly looks pretty good). I'd just rather they'd use the right term and be more upfront about it. Okoume isn't even the same family as Honduran mahogany, let alone the same species!

African Khaya Mahogany and Sapele are in different family of species to Honduran Mahogany, the only other 'true' mahogany which is used for making guitars is Cuban Mahogany and that stuff is as rare as anything! 

I'd not worry about it TBH.  Lots of companies use the African woods and make great guitars, Furch use 'African Mahogany' (is it Khaya? They don't specify), Martin have used Sipo, lots of companies use Sapele for excellent guitars.

Tannin

If we are going to be technical Sapele and khaya are both in the mahogany family Meliaceae. For that matter, so is Sipo, Cedro ("Spanish cedar"), and the Toona genus which contains (among others) the much-prized Australian Red Cedar. All good timbers too. It is certainly a useful family! 

sev112

Lamb and beef go quite well with dark chocolate as it turns out

Dave_Mc

earwighoney said:

Dave_Mc said:

earwighoney said:

Dave_Mc said:

I haven't tried it, but I did email Fender a while back (like you, because of these deals!) and they weren't willing to specify exactly what mahogany they used. 

I think they use Okoume for their Paramount Series guitars. It looks like it from the pictures.

That's what I was sort of suspecting too- I contacted Thomann a while back about some of the Harley Benton acoustics, and they said that they were Okoume- that's the solid wood series ones, the ones specced as "mahogany" (some are specced as being African mahogany).

Again, as I said, it's not necessarily a problem, and it may well sound great (it certainly looks pretty good). I'd just rather they'd use the right term and be more upfront about it. Okoume isn't even the same family as Honduran mahogany, let alone the same species!

African Khaya Mahogany and Sapele are in different family of species to Honduran Mahogany, the only other 'true' mahogany which is used for making guitars is Cuban Mahogany and that stuff is as rare as anything! 

I'd not worry about it TBH.  Lots of companies use the African woods and make great guitars, Furch use 'African Mahogany' (is it Khaya? They don't specify), Martin have used Sipo, lots of companies use Sapele for excellent guitars.

Worry about it is probably a bit strong- but I'd probably like to try it first.

As @Tannin says, Khaya is a fair bit closer to "genuine" mahogany than okoume- there's a good article on the wood database website about it: https://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/mahogany-mixups-the-lowdown/ ;

As far as I can tell, okoume isn't even mentioned in that article - in other words it's really not that close to mahogany at all!

And yeah Furch uses African mahogany, and they actually do specify it's khaya. Dowina uses it too, and again specifies. I've said before, but in my extremely unscientific tests, khaya still sounds really good. I've not been that keen on most of the sapele guitars I've tried, but that could well just have been the individual guitar. I don't think I've tried any okoume guitars.

My main problem is calling it mahogany... when it just isn't. They're trying to add perceived value to the thing. Okoume probably is a fine tonewood, but they should be upfront about what it is.

ICBM

How close a species of wood is to “genuine mahogany” is completely irrelevant snobbery.

What matters for ‘tonewood’ is density, hardness, stiffness and grain structure - which are the factors that determine the resonance and frequency content - it’s perfectly possible to have unrelated woods which are quite similar, or closely related ones which are quite different.

Dave_Mc

ICBM said:

How close a species of wood is to “genuine mahogany” is completely irrelevant snobbery.

What matters for ‘tonewood’ is density, hardness, stiffness and grain structure - which are the factors that determine the resonance and frequency content - it’s perfectly possible to have unrelated woods which are quite similar, or closely related ones which are quite different.

I agree, but I still think they should call it what it is.

EDIT: I should probably clarify what I said above about the one I tried- I'm going on pretty hazy memory here (it was 4-5 years ago), but I think the one I tried was rosewood back and sides and spruce top. I don't think they make any rosewood ones now. So obviously that tells us nothing about the all-mahogany/okoume/shepherd's pie one...

I think the spruce ones have a gloss finish and electronics, and the mahogany ones are satin and no electronics- that's the ones currently on offer of the slightly older series at GG, I'm not sure about the newer ones. You'll probably want to murder me for this (and rightly so) but I like electronics when it has a built-in tuner as it's so handy!

I've even seen some of the new ones on offer- not just so cheap, but down to about £450. I wonder if they're not selling...

Also I realise this is cheating a bit, but I found this: https://www.tastemade.co.uk/videos/sweet-shepherds-pie/

DavidR

Would recommend getting a mahogany acoustic generally. Interesting tonal differences to usual sitka/rosewood/etc. combos. Nice for fingerpicking blues/ragtime/jaunty pieces. Look nice too. Not sure, as has been said, it matters precisely what type of mahogany-like hard wood is used as long as it shares similar tonewood characteristics of woodier, less bright, interesting. Makes for a bit of a nice change overall imho. Also, often pleasantly cheap. Try Monel strings.  :-)

markj

I tried a Spruce and Mahogany Fender Paramount in Sound Affects on Saturday completely underwhelmed.
I really liked a Gibson G45 Generation, it sounded completely alive and very vibrant. 

Dave_Mc

DavidR said:

Would recommend getting a mahogany acoustic generally. Interesting tonal differences to usual sitka/rosewood/etc. combos. Nice for fingerpicking blues/ragtime/jaunty pieces. Look nice too. Not sure, as has been said, it matters precisely what type of mahogany-like hard wood is used as long as it shares similar tonewood characteristics of woodier, less bright, interesting. Makes for a bit of a nice change overall imho. Also, often pleasantly cheap. Try Monel strings.  :-)

That's my thinking- my feeling was when I was trying a bunch of acoustics that I liked spruce more... but once you have more than one, variety of tone is the thing.

I'm just concerned about what @ICBM said about the chocolate shepherd's pie! I'm not sure I've tried an all-mahogany dread, either. (That JWJ round-shouldered one is still calling to me... haven't cracked yet, but I'm not sure I can stick it forever!)

markj said:

I tried a Spruce and Mahogany Fender Paramount in Sound Affects on Saturday completely underwhelmed.
I really liked a Gibson G45 Generation, it sounded completely alive and very vibrant. 

Ooof don't say that, they're sometimes at pretty attractive prices, too. I'm not sure about walnut, either... it looks incredible, but- while much like sapele, I've only tried one or two so it could just be the specific guitar- I've been less keen on how it sounds.