De-Floyd-ing a guitar ? ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ can you do it? ~ how do you do it? ~

ChrisMusic

Is it possible to de-Floyd a guitar?

There are some lovely instruments out there, which could get a new lease of life if it were possible (also advisable?) to swap out the Floyd system.

I have a lovely Yamaha 912 with a Floyd, I am just not sure about it, and it gets uncomfortable as rest my palm on it and the bass string bridge has a pointy corner and the adjusters are always in the way.  It is also a bit of a faff too.  Love the guitar, plays great, just not sure about the Floyd.

I keep seeing other things I like the look of with Floyds too, but...

What is the perceived wisdom?  Or who has a clever idea to move beyond that?

ICBM

It's not easy. Even if the top isn't back-routed it's hard to replace the Floyd with anything that will fit without a large and potentially ugly amount of woodwork.

There is this bridge:

http://www.allparts.uk.com/online-shop/guitar-bass-parts/guitar-bass-parts-general/bridges-parts-tailpieces/bridges/guitar-bridges/tremolos-modern/schaller-tremolo-with-roller-saddles-stud-mount-2-2932-inch-2-18-inch-string-spacing-p-3347.html

which may fit, depending on the post spacing.

You'll also need to remove the nut clamp and fit a conventional nut, which will mean adding a piece of wood as well. You might be able to find a roller nut which will cover most of the area but I still doubt it would be a drop-in fit. You can't simply leave the clamps off the Floyd nut because the friction from the large contact area will cause tuning problems.

It's probably easier to buy a different Pacifica without a Floyd. At least they're so consistent that a different model will be close to identical in feel.

stonevibe

Why don't you just block the trem block with some hardwood and get rid of the locking nuts. 

Make it a hard tail.

There are a few places online that make replacement nuts that will fit in place of the old locking nut.

Have to agree with ICBM though. It would be a lot easier just to change the whole instrument.

Si_

That's all I ever used to do.. worked fine.

ChrisMusic

Thanks chaps.  I thought that all the Floyd licensed systems would have the same post spacing etc, is that not the case then @ICBM ?

I've often seen ads saying "nothing pointy or Floydy", so there would be a market in easy retrofits, but maybe that's not possible.

Great guitars, brought up to date, but without irreversible consequences, seems like a good idea to me. 

Great link, the Schaller trem looks good, pricey, but good.  If that fits the posts, and also the routes then that is a potential solution.  I know that the front routing varies on guitars, and will not be covered.  I assume that the Schaller will still allow pitch-up and will keep the action the same without shimming the neck etc?

I have thought about filing the corner on the bridge for comfort (but irreversible) and unscrewing the fine tuners, undoing the locking nut and maybe putting locking tuners on.  Is that a goer or have I missed something?  I am not after dive bombs etc.

The Yamaha 912 has the "all access" neck joint which is fantastic, (& frets like rail tracks tho !), I don't think the other Pacificas had that joint?

Good point @stonevibe, but I would prefer it to have a trem. A few guitars I have bought had the trems locked down in one way or another when I got them, so I know that's popular, (or is it just that people don't know how to set them up properly?).  I'll check around for the replacement nuts you mentioned, they would make life easier, any idea who makes or retails them?

I like the guitar, but you both may have a point, and that makes getting another Floyd equipped one a more considered purchase too.

ICBM

It does look like the 912 is the only one with that neck joint - although the 812 has an angled heel, rather than the plate like the lower models.

Check the post spacing on your guitar - if it's 74mm the Schaller bridge will fit. Unless they've sold it recently, Strung Out Guitars in Glasgow have one which they would probably do for a fair bit less than £120, too.

DLM

There's been a related discussion on the Suhr Forum recently: http://online-discussion.com/Suhr/viewtopic.php?t=8370 

An idea in there for a replacement nut.

Here's the (old) Pacifica neck joint:

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/ihcAAOxy6~BR0Nth/$(KGrHqFHJEIFGvnvCv-tBR0Ntg46Kg~~60_1.JPG?set_id=880000500F

That was on all but the cheapest original Pacificas, I think. Certainly my 512 has it, as did a 1230S I played in a shop once.

The dimensions of licensed Floyds vary, unfortunately. I'd not bank on compatibility.

I'd agree with the idea of changing the guitar rather than spending heaps on it: second-hand Pacificas go for peanuts and are real bargains in terms of the quality you get for your money. Look for an 812 used, that'll have a vibrato you can set to float and pull up a bit. Or a 904 if you want something a little more vintage-specced.

DLM

Here's a 721 neck joint: http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z30/Guitarlon/8e2ebc451fc3c7b5a0e682e3c6625871.jpg

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z30/Guitarlon/bebdf13ad938fb8c6cda8b3c25da4f25.jpg

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z30/Guitarlon/4385777523cb3e20fa54f536c69eedd9.jpg

Here's the thread: http://www.harmonycentral.com/t5/Electric-Guitars/NGD-Pacifica-721/td-p/34144664

Look what he paid: peanuts!

ThePrettyDamned

Block the trem, but I'd keep the lock on the nut - icbm has it right. It'll stay in tune as well as a Floyd, but without the warble (which I love at times, hate at others).

I also second his thoughts on looking into a used model of a different one. They're consistent.

And excellent.

ChrisMusic

Thanks for the pointer @ICBM, looks like it's within a gnats thingy of 74mm too.

I think that's the same trem as on my Vigier, except I believe they use needle bearings instead of the blade.  Nice trem unit.

The Floyd nut on this appears to be on a screwed on plate, so it should be easy to remove and replace with a custom sub-assembly with a roller nut.  No bolts through the neck, better design, me thinks.  I appreciate your 'friction' point about removing the clamps and using it like that, cheers.

The build quality on these Yamahas is fantastic, forget the 'Yamaha' and 'made in Taiwan' prejudice, they are right up there, really.  The craftsmanship is excellent.  Stock pickups too and it sounds just great.  Value for money new was great, but second hand they are just stupidly good value.

The joint on your 512 @DLM is so similar, you wouldn't notice the difference when playing.  It is such a good system.  I have not dismantled it yet, so I had no idea how they had achieved it, but I have to say I was curious.  Thanks for the images of the plate etc, fascinating and very effective.  The key to good design.

You said that was the 'old' neck joint, do you know when that changed?

I may just have to get mine a sister sometime.

Oh, and you sure know how to make a grown man cry, 125 bucks, that's just not fair !

Thanks for your input @ThePrettyDamned.  I take it you have, or had, a Yamaha too?  Your comment about the warble points to Floyds behaving differently to other trems.  Could you explain a little more for the barely initiated, thanks.

I appreciate you are all saying, that it is probably cheaper to look for another non Floyd guitar, but it's not an investment / overcapitalised thing.  And this is a great guitar, the first I have ever bought sight unseen, and I was blown away when I took it out of the case.   (thanks @supes).

I'm not totally sure how I feel about the whole Floyd idea right now.  I can certainly live with it.  But…

I have seen a couple of nice Ibanez and Music Man guitars with them for reasonable money, so the idea of an easy change (upgrade?) came to mind.  I can't imagine that I am the only one to wonder either.

Looks like it's not quite as straight forward as I had imagined.  But then what in life is?

I do appreciate the input.

axisus

If I didn't want to use a Floyd I'd sell the guitar and get something else. It probably wouldn't be the same modded, and I imagine it would lose significant value as well. 

ThePrettyDamned

With floyds, if you're really spanking the strings (when I'm funking, I spank pretty hard... ) they bash out of tune and warble. It's audible. Palm muting sets them out a bit as well. I love me a good Floyd, but those warbles can annoy a bit and I'm heavy handed. Try fretting an open e minor, then cain the strings hard. You'll hear it "settle" in tune, but it'll warble first. Blocking the trem reduces this because it can only go down in pitch, not up - so it can't fluctuate up and down as well. Other floating (that is, pitch up and down) vibratos can have this issue, but floyds are very sensitive. It's why they're very difficult to master - it makes me laugh when people boast about playing a tele with a high action, when it's much harder to play a Floyd loaded guitar set up with 8s or 9s!

I've not owned one, but came close to owning a 61...Something (611?). It had a bucker and p90, and was stunning but the guy pulled out of the deal sadly. I've played plenty of them, though, when testing amps and a few friends own them. One won't play anything else (seriously). He just replaces with his pickups of choice, and away he goes. Peanuts used, too!

In fact, they're so affordable used, I'd say keep your one and learn to live with the Floyd until you can afford a fixed bridge one.

WezV

a new body would be the best way, copy the neck route exactly and put whatever bridge on you want

Bidley

I always wonder why people who don't like Floyds, buy guitars with Floyds. I know most super-stratty guitars have them, but there are plenty with hardtails or regular trems. Really, your best route is to buy a new guitar or what Wez said if you really like the rest of the guitar. The problem is that changing out the Floyd will probably change a fair bit about the instrument, and you won't know without taking the plunge. It's probably best to cut your losses and buy something you really like

ChrisMusic

Hi @Bidley.    I wasn't really sure about Floyds having just come back to playing guitar again.  They were only just getting popular when I stopped (yes long time back, long story too).

I figured the only way to find out what they were like was to get a guitar with one and live with it for a while.  I'll bet thats why other people "buy to try".

I'm not unhappy with it and I love the guitar, the neck joint is to die for, it's light and resonant and the 2 piece body is craftsman joined ash, through the trans finish, is understated but beautiful and the colour is great.  The neck is fantastic, the jury is still out on rail track sized frets (another living with it experiment).  All in all a great guitar, and fantastic value, so it was well worth a punt.

My main problem with the Floyd is just right hand comfort from how I used to play, mostly Gibsons, and I often rest on the bridge, muting that way too, and I like manipulating the trem that way sometimes as well.

No losses to cut, I can live with it fine, but I know that I was always a fiddler and a modder, so I guess I just can't help myself looking for another way.  I do want any mod to be reversible, too many people just wreck guitars then get rid of them later, that's not my way.

And as I said in my other comments, there are loads of Floyd equipped guitars, many of which are hard to sell, which could find a new lease of life if it were possible to do a reasonably priced and reversible mod.  I have always been a bit of a utopian dreamer too. 

ChrisMusic

Thanks @ThePrettyDamned, very good description.  Yes I see what you mean.  I thought that Floyd was a little "highly strung", that explains it too.

You are right about them being affordable, so I totally agree with that, it's luckily not the "I imagine it would lose significant value as well" which @axisus is concerned about.  It has already lost someone else money long ago.  It really is no hardship to live with and love playing this guitar, truly.

Thanks for the suggestion @WezV, I may get a body made for this, a very practical option.  It would indeed enable me to reverse the work if I later wanted too.  Well worthy of consideration.

Bidley

ChrisMusic said:

My main problem with the Floyd is just right hand comfort from how I used to play, mostly Gibsons, and I often rest on the bridge, muting that way too, and I like manipulating the trem that way sometimes as well.

Fair enough, I can relate to that, I'm the exact opposite - I find Floyds the most comfortable, and Les Pauls/Tune-o-matics quite uncomfortable.

The old Floyd-removal question is a valid one, but there isn't really an economical way (bar the Schaller ICBM posted) of getting around it. There is a gap in the market for some kind of drop-in replacement, but as mentioned original Floyds, Schallers, Gotohs and Ibanez units all have different spacings and would probably be expensive...

Good luck what ever path you choose!

ChrisMusic

Thanks for that @Bidley, I appreciate your remarks.

As far as the comfort thing goes, that's the first time I have really thought about Gibson style bridges, and yes they are bloody uncomfortable too, in a different way.  I guess I just got used to it. (good point)  They are always better if the guitar has been around the block a bit, the rough edges wear off quite quickly.  I have never owned a new guitar, so that probably helped too.

Cheers, a little good luck is always welcome