Classical or Flamenco?

MartinBush

Hi all

I have been playing a 3/4 nylon string guitar in the last few weeks - it's the type I would have had as my first guitar at school (brand name is 'Kent' and it has a painted fretboard!).

Despite its shortcomings it's quite fun and I was thinking about getting a "proper" one, inspired by Jonathan Richman.

Classical guitars seems to be reasonably affordable, whereas flamencos start a few hundreds above. Is there a reason for this? 

I am a strummer (fingers rather than pick) who does a bit of finger picking, and my aim is to write a few songs, so I just need something that stays in tune and sounds OK. Flamenco guitars seem to be a bit closer to what I want in that respect (apparently more percussive) but I may be over thinking it a bit. 

Would a classical actually be OK for what I want? 

Martin

Sputnik

Hi Martin,

I think the big difference for you would be the low, very playable action of a flamenco guitar when compared with the usually high action and improved clarity and sustain of a proper classical guitar.  From the sort of use you describe, I would go for the most comfortable, easy-playing option, which in my humble opinion would be a guitar designed for flamenco. 

Good luck with the world of nylon, but be warned - it's ever so addictive ...

Keith

MartinBush

Cheers @Sputnik I agree that flamenco seems to be the way to go. I just wish they weren't so pricey  (which, I appreciate, is a subjective term).

I was amazed when I picked up the guitar I mention above. I thought it would be rubbish but I found myself playing some interesting things and I have some passable, if a bit rudimentary, right hand technique which I've not employed before. It is, however, a stop-gap. It has two different sets of tuners and a couple are hard to get to pitch.

Tannin

I am only guessing here 'coz I know nothing about nylon. But it strikes me that the terms "classical" and "flamenco" are rather different insofar as "classical guitar" is used to describe almost anything with nylon strings that isn't obviously some particular other thing (e.g., a flamenco guitar or a gypsy jazz guitar). So while proper classical guitars (which can cost £300 or £3000) are called "classical", so is a cheap plywood student guitar or a general-purpose folk guitar just so long as they have nylon strings. Compare with a guitar sold as a "flamenco guitar" - that will actually be a guitar made for playing flamenco and related styles on. 

Again, this is complete guesswork, but my thought is that actual classical guitars (as opposed to very cheap student guitars labelled "classical" because they have nylon strings) will cost as much or more than flamenco ones. 

MartinBush

That is probably true @Tannin ;

My recent experience with a steel-strung acoustic is that Yamaha are quite good at any price point, so that drew me to one of their classical models. Then I read a bit further and saw that, as @Sputnik points out, flamencos have some characteristics that make them a bit more playable for my sort of style.

That said, I am one of those people who just picks up a guitar if there is one lying around and sees what happens. I would just play the cheapo one I am using at the moment if I was able to get it to stay reliably in tune, but I suspect it would need to go to a tech for new tuners, nut etc and not be worth the cost and bother.

TheBigDipper

Proper flamenco guitars are likely to have a thicker top and the low action will be quite rattly - all for percussive effect. A concert classical will sound better for non-flamenco playing. 

There are plenty of nylon-strung hybrids available that are easier to play (low action, radiuses fretboard) but sound poor in comparison to a proper classical. 

I've got a Martin parlour guitar strung with low tension silk'n'steel strings. That's quite good for the classical vibe and might suit. 

MartinBush

I think I probably need to try some in a shop. I expect this is an instance where ordering online isn't really the way forward. 

Keiko

The cheaper classical guitars are aimed at beginners. If you want a good quality classical you'll want one with a solid wood top. That will cost a few hundred. The top is the part that resonates, so ideally needs to be solid wood, the back and sides deal more with amplification rather than tone, so wood quality is less important there.

Although classical guitars aren't really for 'strummers' in my opinion. You probably want a steel string. Try some out.

MartinBush

I have a steel strung which suits me very well and I was playing that every day until recently when I had a go on the other acoustic I mention above. By "strummer" I mean this sort of style of playing: Jonathan Richman - Now is Better Than Before (Later Archive 1994) - YouTube  

I am not able to tell the difference between the types, but Jonathan Richman has said he plays a flamenco type, hence me looking into those. 

As you say, trying is probably the way forward here.

thermionic

I would look for one with a tremolo arm, like Jonathan’s..

MartinBush

Yes, @thermionic I found that amusing, which I think was the intention.

He used to play a jazzmaster in the 70s...

Mellish

@MartinBush ; yes, always try first if you can.

I get that it can be returned if ordered online but it's not ideal and I've never done it that way. Some have to, though. 

 

sev112

Lot of excellent Spanish guitar music which isn’t flamenco

MartinBush

Los Bravos? @sev112 ;

more

Classical guitar is a unfortunate name. It  adds a restriction  that  in reality  is not there . Nylon strung would be a better general term. Flamenco  is older than the guitar and originally was just  hand clapping and the singer . Originally , flamenco guitarist wanted a guitar that was light , cheep and loud . Wooden tuning pegs and local sourced woods , like  cypress and sycamore  were favoured. Thin sound boards and simpler bracing made the guitars louder . The  action should be a low as possible, some buzzing is  acceptable and   golpedores , tap  plates , can be  glued on the sound board. Potentially any nylon strung guitar will be suitable for flamenco style playing . 

BillDL

When you strum a steel strung guitar you have a brightness and a fair amount of sustain on each string.  When you strum a nylon strung guitar the strings sound more mellow and don't have quite as much sustain, so the strums will sound quite different from each other.  I find that you tend to feel the vibrations through a nylon strung guitar in a different way from a steel strung guitar.  In addition, string bending is not very effective on nylon strings, so if you try and play some melodies where you would be used to bending the strings on a steel strung guitar, you are instead going to have to play a nylon strings in a more linear way and ignore bending.  Vibrato on nylon strung guitars is achieved in a linear fashion within the fret space rather than with bending steel strings slightly.

The sound of plucked strings on a nylon strung guitar tend to make you want to play the usual "Spanish" type scales and chord progressions, but there are guitarists that played nylon strung guitars for a much wider range of music.  Jerry Reed used nylon strung guitars for Southern American style fingerpicking, Chet Atkins used nylon strung guitars for his quite unique style of playing, and Charlie Byrd used one for playing his own blend of jazzy fingerpicked bluesy music with string bends thrown into the mix.

Budget is all important with nylon strung guitars.  The Kent guitar you have been playing is most likely to have been from the late 70s to early 80s, and it was a budget brand.  That is not to say that it will automatically have a "cheap" sound, and even if it does sound boxy and cheap compared with a higher quality guitar it isn't necessarily a "bad" sound.  As mentioned earlier, the most important part of a (non-piezo pickup) nylon strung guitar is the vibrating top (soundboard).  Nylon strings don't exert nearly as much downward pressure on the saddle as steel strings, so a solid wood top is able to be vibrated more easily by nylon strings than a laminated top.  There are some guitars in the budget/starter range that have solid wooden tops, but generally you need to go the next step up in price to get a solid wooden top.

TIP:  It is the norm these days to specify "solid wood" for tops, backs and sides.  If you just see "spruce", you can usually assume that it is laminated wood with a spruce top veneer.

The Yamaha C40 classical guitar is the best selling standard sized classical guitar because it's a "starter" guitar and often the ones that schools buy for their music students to start out on and parents buy at Christmas.  They are usually well made for their very modest price tag and you will certainly get a playable guitar that sounds like a classical guitar despite being of all laminate construction.  You will only know how much better a classical guitar with a solid wood top usually sounds in comparison with a laminate top if you have played them both.  If you haven't, then there's nothing wrong with a laminated top if it is what you can buy within your budget and if it sounds acceptable to your ears.

The Yamaha C40 is supposedly on a Black Friday deal at GuitarGuitar down from £180 to £119, but if it was ever at £180 in any one of their shops it would have been for one qualifying month so they could call it a "sale" item.  From what I have seen for ages it has been consistently priced around £120 to £140.  You have to be careful at this time of the year because purported mark-downs are often just lies.

Addendum: Cordoba make good quality nylon strung guitars that don't cost an arm and a leg for what you are getting, and they now have a range specifically aimed at guitarists used to playing steel strung guitars so that the transition is easier.  The necks tend to be slimmer and narrower.  I'm not altogether convinced.  The wider and usually thicker necks make you play in a different way, and if a guitar has been modelled to feel more like a steel strung guitar it might feel too much like one to make you play it in a way that is best suited to nylon strings.

MartinBush

Thanks @BillDL ;

That Yamaha C40 looks OK to me and is likely to be about as much as I can afford at the moment. I mentioned Jonathan Richman earlier and he made comment along the lines of the guitar he plays at the moment is something that he bought and likes (rather than having sought out something supposedly authentic and built to specific standards) - I think that is the right way to go about it.

I think trying one will be a good idea. I had my heart set on a specific steel acoustic last year. When I went in to PMT to try it, it was awful. I ended up with a Yamaha which, to me, was better than more expensive ones I tried. 

BillDL

I think you should also consider 2nd-hand.  You might be able to get a used intermediate priced classical with a solid wood top for maybe only £30 more than the likes of a new Yamaha C40.

MartinBush

I will bear that in mind. The attraction of buying new is the option of paying in installments. Somehow that is easier than saving up