String explorer

guitarjack66

Can anybody explain how say .12 gauge strings are labelled as 'light' when the standard .10 size that I use on acoustic are also considered light? Sounds like a big difference to me. What am I missing?

thomasross20

I need to catch up on this thread. 

My fave is still Daddario XT 11s. 
Like @ditchboy I find they give a BETTER tone, are easier to play with and they'll put less tension on the bridge for instrument longetivity. 

Interestingly, I find some guitars might be better suited to 12s without much give re playability. Just the characteristics of different guitars, I guess. 

What I do NOT like are proper coated strings like Elixir or .... Daddario XS which I recently bought and hate the sound of. They are too zingy. 

Dave_Mc

guitarjack66 said:

Can anybody explain how say .12 gauge strings are labelled as 'light' when the standard .10 size that I use on acoustic are also considered light? Sounds like a big difference to me. What am I missing?

I could be wrong but I think 12s are considered light on acoustic while 10s are considered light on electric?

guitarjack66

Dave_Mc said:

guitarjack66 said:

Can anybody explain how say .12 gauge strings are labelled as 'light' when the standard .10 size that I use on acoustic are also considered light? Sounds like a big difference to me. What am I missing?

I could be wrong but I think 12s are considered light on acoustic while 10s are considered light on electric?

I use .10 on both just as a start point. I have used .11 and .12 on acoustic too but come back to .10 

mo6020

guitarjack66 said:

Dave_Mc said:

guitarjack66 said:

Can anybody explain how say .12 gauge strings are labelled as 'light' when the standard .10 size that I use on acoustic are also considered light? Sounds like a big difference to me. What am I missing?

I could be wrong but I think 12s are considered light on acoustic while 10s are considered light on electric?

I use .10 on both just as a start point. I have used .11 and .12 on acoustic too but come back to .10 

10s on acoustics sounds incredibly light...

Dave_Mc

guitarjack66 said:

Dave_Mc said:

guitarjack66 said:

Can anybody explain how say .12 gauge strings are labelled as 'light' when the standard .10 size that I use on acoustic are also considered light? Sounds like a big difference to me. What am I missing?

I could be wrong but I think 12s are considered light on acoustic while 10s are considered light on electric?

I use .10 on both just as a start point. I have used .11 and .12 on acoustic too but come back to .10 

I went down to 11s on acoustic... if you prefer 10s go for it. I like 9s on Fender-scale electrics, for instance!

Tannin

@guitarjack66, the names of string gauges are a mess! And they are hopelessly out of touch with what people actually use. And electrics use different names. 

* 13s are heavy, the heaviest normal people ever use in or near a standard tuning, but they are called medium.
* 12-56 sets are called bluegrass regardless of what you play on them.
* 12s are medium, the normal standard default gauge most guitars ship with and most people use, but they are called light.
* 11s are light, and quite commonly used on acoustics, but they are called custom light (well mostly - the name for these varies).
* 10s are extra light, and only used on acoustics by weird people, and they are called extra light.

Ernie Ball, on the other hand calls mediums (which are really heavies) medium; lights (which are really mediums) medium-light; custom lights (which are really lights) lights; extra lights (which really are extra light) extra lights; and doesn't call bluegrass sets anything.

There will be a short quiz after class.

PS: electric players seem to use mostly 9s or 10s but I don't keep track of what electric players do. 

Tannin

In today's updates (as always posted by editing the first page of the thread) I sampled the excellent German-made Fisoma 80/20s. Curiously, Lord of the Strings don't carry a standard phosphor bronze set from Fisoma, only brass and other more specialised materials (silk and steel for example). Thomann  don't carry Fisoma guitar strings at all, but have a range for violin, mandolin, and other instruments. Nor does the manufacturer seem to have a website. A bit of digging suggests that they are made by a company called Lenzer, and that this is now part of Optima. No matter, the strings are good! (EDIT: the correct spelling is Lenzner and with that sorted I see that they do in fact have a website.) 

Laughably, I completely forgot that they were brass and fitted them to a guitar which I wouldn't have dreamed of putting 80/20s on, the spruce and rosewood Furch. I had them on for a month and never did twig until I came to write them up for this page. Unlike most (but not all) brass strings, they don't have that super-bright twang; they play pretty much like bright phosphor bronze strings.

EDIT: I just found the empty Fisoma packet and they were in fact Fisoma phosphor bronze. My notes were taken from the invoice which had incorrectly listed them as 80/20s. They played pretty much like phosphor bronze strings because they were  phosphor bronze strings.

Back in October I fitted Cleartone Reds to the Maton Messiah and really liked them. They are still on it, a bit past their best-before now but I don't play that one much and keep meaning to sell it but haven't been able to bring myself to actually pull the trigger. Every so often I pick it up and think "Really? Sell this ? Surely not." So the strings are still on it, and still sounding just fine. 

The Dean Markley 2081 Helix HD set I bought in 11 gauge by mistake seemed pretty decent, and I was very happy with the GHS Phosphor Bronze, a good, standard, does-what-it-says-on-the-tin string. 

 Headway Everlux, a coated string sold in the UK but manufactured in China, were reasonably OK. They probably last quite well - and bloody well ought to at the price! - but I had something on and wanted the guitar to sound its best so I turfed them out early. Also made in China is the Ibanez phosphor bronze set, which is about on a par with the Everlux set only half the price. There seems no particular reason to buy either of them again.

From the US, Mapes American String were decent. I've enjoyed SIT Royal Bronze before but it's worth mentioning that I tried them on the new spruce and rosewood Furch and they were better than ever. Sometimes I fit a set of top quality already well-known to me (such as these, or Galli LS, or DR Sunbeams) to a guitar and wonder why I ever bother with all these new and different strings. Then I remember that if it wasn't for all this experimenting I would not have tried any of the great strings just mentioned. Besides, I enjoy the adventure of trying new ones.

From Ireland, I've tried sets of Trad Master phosphor bronze, in both standard 12s and baritone gauges. The standard 12s are working nicely. The baritone set I'm not so sure about it; I took them off temporarily as I had reason to want the Thunderhawk to be at its very best for a few days, so fitted one of the custom Newtone sets which work so well on it, but I'll put the Trad Masters back on to one or other of the baritones later on and see how we go with them.

Finally, saving the best till last, Wyres CP1254. These are PFTE (Teflon) coated, like Elixirs. They cost less than Elixirs (well, so does nearly everything), are not as hard and stiff under the fingers (so are most strings this side of Dunlops), and will probably last nearly as long. They sound more natural (which isn't difficult), are only a little bit soapy-feeling, and despite all these advantages, don't squeal under the fingers the way that almost all non-Elixir strings do. That is unique in my experience. I only put them on this morning, but if after a month or so they turn out to be half as good as they seem on first impression, they'll be well worth trying for yourself.

Supportact

thomasross20 said:

I need to catch up on this thread. 

My fave is still Daddario XT 11s. 
Like @ditchboy I find they give a BETTER tone, are easier to play with and they'll put less tension on the bridge for instrument longetivity. 

Interestingly, I find some guitars might be better suited to 12s without much give re playability. Just the characteristics of different guitars, I guess. 

What I do NOT like are proper coated strings like Elixir or .... Daddario XS which I recently bought and hate the sound of. They are too zingy. 

Still following this thread, and it's inspired me to keep a log of what strings I'm using and what they sound like (rather than just get whatever is in the shop or on special offer).

Daddario xt 11s also a favourite of mine at the moment, for reasons you described but also I find them less prone to string squeek, which is a bonus due to my appalling fretting technique. 

Tannin

^ Good for you @Supportact! It is interesting, looking back after a few years, to see what things change and what things don't. 

Supportact

Tannin said:

^ Good for you @Supportact! It is interesting, looking back after a few years, to see what things change and what things don't. 

Yes true, and I'm finding it particularly necessary for choosing nylon/classical strings. The tension ratings don't seem to mean much from brand to brand, or the general description of tones, so you basically have to buy various ones and try them until you find ones you like. 

YorkieBarre

Excellent resource Tannin, thank you! I’ve used it for a fair bit of experimentation recently and still enjoying faffing around trying different strings. However, I’ve definitely settled for Newtone Masterclass 12-54 on my Fylde Falstaff Blackwood as they balance out the tone on a rather bass-heavy dread. They play well, feel nice and last well, so they’re keepers.

Neil at Newtone suggested that I try 11-52 Monels on my 12 fret, short scale, small bodied (grand concert) all mahogany as he reckoned his Monel string tension is higher than PBs and that Monel 12s may be harder to do the blues bends with my arthritic hands. I’ve seen it said elsewhere that smaller bodied guitars suit lighter gauge strings better, but Taylor factory fit 12s on all their models irrespective of size. Personally, I found the 11 Monels a bit ‘sloppy’ (my technique, short scale length - who knows) so I’m back to 12s.

So ‘ideal’ string gauge can also presumably vary by string material, scale length, body size, application (e.g. blues bends) and the state of any arthritis - which gives me an excuse for endless experimentation on life’s journey!

Tannin

A minor update worth mentioning because the strings are very interesting. 

First, more on the Trad Master Phosphor. These hand-made, hand-packaged Irish strings are rather out of the ordinary. They have a bit of tension to them (which is something you definitely want if you are going to use DADGAD, which I imagine a lot of Irish players do) but are nevertheless light enough and pleasant to play, with a nice responsive feel under the left hand (similar to many round cores) and a little bit of fight under the plucking hand. (You can hit them hard and they don't mind.)

The sound is curiously soft, one of the lower volume strings I have tried, with an open, spacious sound, not a lot of attack or treble but with interesting harmonic subtleties going on. Maybe I'm romancing on too little data, but I reckon these are made for the classic Irish sound - unless I miss my guess, they'd be the best strings ever on a Lowden or a Macilroy. The lack of volume would not matter (these are loud guitars!), the clean, subtle harmonic content would blossom, and because of that clarity they would not become over-rich and cloying.

Am I making far too much of a casual impression of a single set of strings on a completely different guitar? Perhaps. But if you own a Lowden or an Avalon or anything else in that tradition, for sure you should chance fourteen quid on a set of Trad Masters. You might just love them.



^ Not just hand-wound, the Trad Masters come in hand-labelled packets.


Second, the remarkable La Bella Gypsy Jazz. These are even more distinctive. I ordered them wondering what the difference (if any) was between orthodox silk and steel and Gypsy jazz strings - apart from the fact that you have to be careful ordering Gypsy jazz strings because they come in standard ball end and also non-standard loop end styles. Don't order the wrong ones! These come in 12-56 instead of a more typical 12-53 or so, presumably because a 52 or 54 silk and steel E string is really too light for many purposes.

Well the short answer is that they are very different indeed. Yes, they use a silk and steel construction with silver-coated winding, so they look similar, but the sound is something else. First, they have probably the loudest left-hand squeal I have ever experienced. Silver-coated strings are always squeally, especially when new, but these are louder even than the Pyramid 307s I tried and liked about this time last year. You have to pay attention to your sloppy technique - and ideally play them when Mrs Tannin isn't around!

La Bella claim that "These perfectly balanced sets are best suited to the driving percussive rhythm style called "la pompe" and the blistering leads using fast scales, slides, and chromatic chords". For once, the PR blurb is pretty much right. Blistering leads are not my style but on the treble side the La Bellas ring out very loud and clear. I can see a Joscho Stephan getting a great lead sound out of them. The "driving percussive rhythm" is my sort of thing (well, one of the things I do), and they really work for this. They have a big thud to start the note and not much sustain. (Not unlike an archtop tone.) If you want an uptempo Freddie Green sort of sound, three-string jazz voicings that thump the tune along, these strings really deliver. As I said in my comment on the first page, these are transformative strings. Close your eyes and you'd think this orthodox flattop fingerstyle guitar was a Selmer or a Maccaferri.

In short, La Bella Gypsy Jazz strings work very well indeed for swing or Gypsy jazz - but if you want to play rock or country or folk of any kind, use some other string. They sound no better than fair to poor if you are strumming cowboy chords, picking out a James Taylor-style ballad, or hammering through a rock classic. Very much strings for one particular style of music. 

Last point: is this quality something special about the La Bella Gypsy Jazz set? Or is this a normal quality of all Gypsy jazz strings from any maker?

I don't know yet, but I have here a set of La Bella Silk & Steel in the same 12-56 gauges to compare. How different will they be? I have tried other silk and steels and I also have here two more sets of silver-plated strings, the familiar Pyramid 307s and Fisoma Trampers, both in lighter 12-50 and 12-52 gauges - but no other Gypsy jazz strings. Although there are several makes, the La Bellas seem to be the only one in gauges heavy enough to be of interest. All the others I have found so far come in gauges like 10-45 and 11-46 - much too light for a standard flattop.

Why is it so? Well, a good part of the answer lies in scale length. Gypsy jazz guitars usually have a 670mm scale, meaning that a set of 11s tuned to standard pitch behaves like a set of 12s on a normal 647mm flattop. Short of buying a Maccaferri-style guitar - and a good one costs about the same as a decent Furch or Brook or Martin - I reckon the La Bella Gypsy Jazz strings are as close as you are ever likely to come to the genuine Gypsy jazz sound and feel.

Tannin

Updates today (as usual via edit). First, a general once-over to pick up little errors (I'm sure that plenty remain!), re-write some intros, and improve the layout.

I tried Dean Markley 85/15 Vintage Bronze on the Furch half-expecting the combination of a slightly treble-happy rosewood guitar and treble-happy brass strings to be a bit nasty.  However 85/15 brass is usually a good deal more mellow than 80/20, so why not take a punt? After the inital over-brightness wore off (a week or so) these settled down to be good performers. They are certainly pretty bright but not not over the top, and they give the Furch a clear, sweet, singing tone not unlike my Maton Messiah or a Taylor 714.  I suspect I'll keep them on for a long time: they will mellow further and, if anything, get even better. 

On the Angel, I tried Adamas Composites, the new made-in-China version. I was putting off trying these because I loved the previous American-made ones and have a low opinion of most Chinese strings. But I had three sets of the damn things to use up and you have to start sometime. Yes, they are different, and no they aren't as good, but they are pretty damn close - and "pretty damn close" to the quite excellent old US-made Adams Composites is still a very good string. Perhaps even more than the old ones, they disappoint at first but get better and better with time on. 

I don't know that DR communicate the purpose of DR Rare  strings as well as they might. Random people on the web say that they lack treble and zing, other randoms say they are rich and warm. On my rosewood Messiah, which tends to be a little top-happy, these are just the thing for a more balanced tone (rather like Cleartone Reds) and lovely under the fingers too (like Sunbeams).

DR Veritas are essentially coated Sunbeams. They bring all the same benefits but last a good deal longer. 

I really liked the set of Dragão D100 Guitarra Acustica I put on the full-voiced WA May last year, but a set of the same on the delicate little Brook didn't work at all well, they just sounded thin and unsatisfying. As ever, strings are horses for courses! Knowing I needed strings with more body and perhaps a little more weight, I tried an old favourite, Pyramid Western Folk. Perfect!

Nicola NIC-30s is a brand I have not tried before. They seem to be made by the same company which manufactures both Black Diamond and Sfarzo strings. (I quite like most Black Diamond types but hated the onty set of Sfarzos I ever tried.) As for the Nicolas, they are not a success on the WA May. They just don't sing or have anything much by way of dynamics. Don't write them off on that account though, I suspect that they would be good strumming strings on a classic American dreadnought and might even go OK on one of my other guitars.

Last time I mentioned - well, OK, raved about - the extraordinary La Bella Gypsy Jazz set. Well, after three or four weeks of playing them on and off for the thrill of their very different nature, and then three or four more weeks not playing them at all because I was over on the other island, I came back to find that they had mellowed magnificently. Simply, these are by far the best silk and steel strings I have ever played, and by far the best strings I've ever had on the very responsive little Mineur.  I could rant on all over again about their second incarnation. And - astonishingly for a silk and steel string - they lasted for five months and were still sounding good - just barely starting to fade - when I took them off.

To finally replace the La Bella Gypsy Jazz I tried silver plated Fisoma Trampers. They are an excellent example of the silver plated genre, with much of the sweetness of the La Bella GJs, plus a little more ring, but less body of course. As usual with silvers, they are a bit on the light side for me. 

And now for something completely different. After having them on-hand but untried for a couple of years, I finally opened my set of Optima Vintage Flex low-tension round cores and put them on the cedar-top Maton dreadnought. The good news is that they settle down to a lovely tone, bright but mellow, The bad news is that they really, really mean it when they say "low tension"! These are crazy light. Nominally 12s, they play like 10s, and I don't mean heavy 10s. That makes the Vintage Flex strings, for a player with a moderately vigourous right hand like me, just about unplayable. I'm not enjoying them. But if you have a valuable old instrument you need to gentle along, or if you are a bit of an old relic yourself and having difficulty fretting notes these days, give them a try. They are excellent  strings - just way, way lighter than any 12s I've ever heard of.

Tannin

QUESTION: 

Should I try a set of D'Addario XS?

I have played multiple sets of D'Addario EJ16s on various different guitars and also the coated D'Addario XTs, and see no reason to buy them again. In my book the standard EJ16s  (and the coated XTs) are decent but ordinary. There are certainly worse strings, but there are plenty of better ones. 

Obviously, coated XS strings will last longer than standard uncoated strings. But do they play differently? Do I need to try a set? 

drofluf

My Furch OOM came with a set and I didn’t think much of them, they lacked the soapy feel of Elixirs so in that respect were better. But I soon changed them for some Newtones. 

So to a normal person I’d say no…

Soupman

^^I'm not a normal person, I rather like the soapy feeling of Elixirs. I recently removed a set of Everlux (by Headway) - they were like a rasp under my fingers 
PS I also love Newtone strings - great tone & string balance.

drofluf

I'm about to take the Everluxs off one of my guitars, like you I find them very rough.  It's my travel guitar so least played but they're too hard on my fingers.

Tannin

That rough surface finish of the Everlux strings is indeed unpleasant, but it wears off after a while. It seems to be a common characteristic of Chinese-made strings. Others with a similar feel include Adamas, Eko, Ibanez, and Career. Are they all out of the same factory? Wouldn't surprise me - though I have to say that the Adamas are a cut above the others mentioned. 

NicoAdie

Could you try some of the Martin Luxe Kovars? I put some on my 00015m a few days ago and I'm stunned by how good they sound and feel. They're not cheap!