No amp setup. Should I use amp/cab sim on PA.

AdamHarkusBlog

New setup for me and would appreciate your thoughts and experience.

I'm started in a new band using in ear monitoring and no amps. (!)

I'm all for it the band mix is clear and we're not fighting for volume.

Guitar is lined straight into the pa which has software to handle amp/cab sims.. and sounds good for clean sounds.

... but unusually for drive tones.

The next step for me is to get a new multi-fx to handle dirt and everything else... maybe something like the Zoom G5n.

Anyway, my question is, should I continue to use the PA amp cab sim (which would also free up some blocks on the Zoom, or should I just go direct to PA with the multi handling all amp/cab sims?

The second option would also give me more control via the pedal.

What's your experience?

p90fool

I think you'll have to try both and go with the one which sounds best. 

bloodandtears

why not add one of these to the end of your pedal chain?

mooer radar speaker cab simulator

fretmeister

You may well find that the PA cab sim doesn't work well with your drive sounds from whatever you use to get them.

If you get something that has Cab Sims / IRs anywhere from the modest priced Mooer multiFX to a Helix / QC / Kemper whatever then the cabs can be changed per sound. So if you have a Fender clean tone you can have a nice Jensen speaker, and then when you go to dirt you can have a V30 type thing. Or loads more sounds too.

In that situation you'd turn all the cabs OFF on the PA. Don't want to run a cab into another cab as that just leads to a mushy sound.

shufflebeat

bloodandtears said:

why not add one of these to the end of your pedal chain?

mooer radar speaker cab simulator

I use one for acoustic (my own IRs) and the bass player in the band I tech for retired his Dynacord setup and switched over to one at my request. He is very happy and so is his chiropractor.

There's a lot packed into that little box (valve power amp sim, speaker sim, excellent EQ and gain management) and it can run off a battery pack if required - useful.

Supportact

bloodandtears said:

why not add one of these to the end of your pedal chain?

mooer radar speaker cab simulator

I use one of these Mooer ones as a back up, and I've been impressed. You can load your own IRs but i haven't bothered, as i found the preset amp/speaker models pretty good, especially if you spend a bit of time tweaking the eq etc.

Added bonus if you put one of these on your pedal board it's got a headphone out, so you can play through headphones at home for quiet practice.

I've not compared it to something like a Strymon iridium for example (which is much more expensive). Also as far as I remember it needs 12v power supply so need to check if you've got the right power outlet available. 

shufflebeat

Supportact said:

bloodandtears said:

why not add one of these to the end of your pedal chain?

mooer radar speaker cab simulator

I use one of these Mooer ones as a back up, and I've been impressed. You can load your own IRs but i haven't bothered, as i found the preset amp/speaker models pretty good, especially if you spend a bit of time tweaking the eq etc.

Added bonus if you put one of these on your pedal board it's got a headphone out, so you can play through headphones at home for quiet practice.

I've not compared it to something like a Strymon iridium for example (which is much more expensive). Also as far as I remember it needs 12v power supply so need to check if you've got the right power outlet available. 

It prefers a 12v supply but is fairly tolerant in that respect. I took part in a discussion regarding running a pedalboard from a battery pack and designers of both the Radar and Tonedexter gave details on the topic.

I'll hunt it out if anyone's interested.

One other thing to consider - the output jack of the Radar is TRS, not TS, and is balanced so no need for a separate DI, just a TRS-XLRm adaptor* to fit on the end of a regular mic lead or straight into a stagebox.

*I put together my own adaptors with a short length of cable rather than buying those metal adaptors which apply huge leverage/strain on XLR/jack connectors and invariably break because they're just spare parts jammed together anyway.


[Edit]

Oops, I linked to the wrong vid previously. This one is more specific and explanatory:

The guy does a good job of illustrating the possibilities.

Supportact

That is interesting @shufflebeat. I had a 12v outlet on my power supply so I never tried it on 9v, but it's good to know it could work on the 9v if needs be. 

maltingsaudio

Do you have a sound engineer? Curious as to what desk and what plug in your using on the desk

PolarityMan

1.) The amp sims in the  2 PA's ive tried  havent been that great (soundcraft and behringer)
2.) Especially with drive tones the cab IR is an integral part of the tone so I prefer to ahve this logically separate from the PA so if I were to for example, use another PA or have to send a feed to a foh guy the IR is baked into the signal for all use cases not jsut my IEM mix.
3.) If you have the ability to use an IR rather than a cab sim on your multi then use that and get some decent IRs
4.) Ive never tried the zoom but the limiting factor may be the multi itself

PolarityMan

FWIW I use a helix for this. 

ESBlonde

The amp sim on the behringer XR18 tends to raise the noise level somewhat in the PA which I found annoying. I’ve used it for rehearsal but it’s reserved for a get out of jail situation for proper gigs.

Stratavarious

I really dislike the built in sims in the Soundcraft digital mixer.  Def. get it built in the multifx.. many new multi-fx has IR loaders stock.. e.g Boss GX100

or just get an IR cab/amp sim pedal with current pedals. 

flying_pie

An IR pedal like Mooer Radar is great because you can store loads of IRs without taking up multi FX memory. You'll find that different PAs/rooms can benefit from different IRs 

@Supportact have you tried turning off the power tube sim and using the EQ instead in your Radar? The rough settings are:

110Hz, dB: +10, Q: 2.50

12kHz, dB: +10, Q: 0.50

The 110Hz acts like a resonance control and the 12kHz acts like a presence knob with 7-15 dB for each being the approximate equivalent of 0-10 on an amp. It feels much more responsive than the stock power tubes.

Adding a low pass filter around 6.5kHz (or even lower) can also help it feel a bit more like a real speaker than a digital effects by knocking off the highest highs that wouldn't be produced by a real speaker 

John_P

I think you’ll get better results with your own amp/ speaker sim than any built in to the desk with less hassle and more control.   I carry a Strymon iridium when I’m mixing that I can use if a band has an amp issue but the tech21 pedals are good.   Or go for a multi fx that offers amps as well - doesn’t have to be a quad cortex, fractal etc a hx stomp or one of the hotone, zoom offerings will do a far better job than anything built into the desk.  

Supportact

flying_pie said:

An IR pedal like Mooer Radar is great because you can store loads of IRs without taking up multi FX memory. You'll find that different PAs/rooms can benefit from different IRs 

@Supportact have you tried turning off the power tube sim and using the EQ instead in your Radar? The rough settings are:

110Hz, dB: +10, Q: 2.50

12kHz, dB: +10, Q: 0.50

The 110Hz acts like a resonance control and the 12kHz acts like a presence knob with 7-15 dB for each being the approximate equivalent of 0-10 on an amp. It feels much more responsive than the stock power tubes.

Adding a low pass filter around 6.5kHz (or even lower) can also help it feel a bit more like a real speaker than a digital effects by knocking off the highest highs that wouldn't be produced by a real speaker 

Thanks, I've not tried that but I'll have a go. I really haven't tinkered with it much,  as I'm just using it for headphones practice or a backup and I found the presets good enough so far. 

flying_pie

Supportact said:

Thanks, I've not tried that but I'll have a go. I really haven't tinkered with it much,  as I'm just using it for headphones practice or a backup and I found the presets good enough so far. 

The stock settings are decent. These settings do more to improve the dynamics when playing rather than utterly transforming the tone.