Fender Super Champ XD / X2 - potential purchase questions

mojofilters

I've recently treated myself to what I considered a "nice" guitar. I didn't need it, but I found a cracking deal on an instrument I've long wanted to own - a Fender Thinline Telecaster with the reissue CuNiFe pickups.

The worst case scenario is that I'll end up selling it on at little to zero loss. However I'd *much* rather just get into the habit of properly playing it regularly, without causing too much disruption in the household or hassle for myself.

Since I acquired the tele and got it into playable shape (courtesy of much incredibly kind and useful help provided here, to rectify an issue that looked serious but was actually just a consequence of poor packaging and rough handling in shipping) I've sadly spent more time wondering about which - if any - amp to buy, simply for the purpose of having something handy, which is easy to manoeuvre into (and out of) the proximity of my new guitar, plus any of my small but precious collection of pedals.

The latter simply need organising. I've neither a pedalboard nor a decent power supply, beyond the full fat One Spot daisy chain package, plus assorted wall warts and a few rechargeable batteries. However that's another topic I'll be addressing separately.

Right now I'm just looking for a combo amp that's either better than my big old basic 15" Ashdown bass combo, or at least more easily used for practice purposes.

I've tried a few options in local shops, though I've been disappointed at the random nature of whatever they actually have in stock. I'm following lots of gear on eBay and Reverb, but it's quite apparent that shipping combos is much more hassle when compared with guitars. I've been looking at all the second hand local options, but on the rare occasion something of interest turns up it's usually priced absurdly optimistically!

I have found a couple of viable options locally. The first was a Fender Super Champ X2 located so close that I offered to walk to the seller to give it a try. In line with my luck he eventually replied to say he was working away, and poor planning on my part meant I missed the end of his eBay auction by 12 hours.

However in the lemons-to-lemonade spirit, after seeing that Super Champ X2 sell for way below Reverb's average, I figured I'd take a chance on the next XD or X2 that could be bought for a similarly reasonable price.

Yet once again a spanner has been thrown in the proverbial works. In my unsatisfactory quest to buy a combo I liked from the various local shops, a couple of times I was asked the same thing - have I tried a Mesa Boogie?

That question was provoked by my referencing my ideal amplification solution: something with the low end "thump" of a dimed Fender Twin, but in a Princeton's packaging. It's further complicated by the fact we don't have any local Mesa dealers.

I've literally no experience of using, or even knowingly hearing in person, a Mesa Boogie of any kind. However by sheer dumb luck a very tidy Express 5:50 has turned up locally, with a price tag around the £600 mark (no pun intended!)

This price seems fair from looking at the Reverb guide, although for some reason this particular combo has a huge variation in sold prices according to that guide.

On paper the pair of 6L6 output valves sounds ideal; half the compliment of a Twin Reverb, the same as a Bassman, Super Reverb, Hotrod Deluxe and I think the Pro Reverb too...however I'm yet to get a response to my request to try before I buy, and paper specs can only tell me so much anyways...

Which brings me back to the reason I started this thread - the attractive portable and (if I actually buy it) inexpensive Super Champ XD or X2 option. Right now I've found one from a seller willing to ship, it's the older XD model but I'm not seeing any differences between the two that would bother me. I'm a sucker for something pretty, and these have that vintage black panel vibe I really like!

I've been struggling to get hard data around whether the 12AX7 is actually used as a preamp valve. If it is, I assume that's for the plain first channel. But that's fine with me, as running the amp like a poor man's Princeton pedal platform - I'd be quite happy getting any serious gain I need from pedals. If any members have experience with this amp, I'd really value hearing how you found it, and also how you ran it?

Even though I doubt I'll want to use the Super Champ for anything more than practice, practicing is exactly what I should be doing right now, as opposed to furiously searching the web unrealistically for simple answers to more complex questions.

Assuming I can get this/any Super Champ for a decent price, I'm not going to be disappointed when it doesn't have the thumping bass I'd like, or even the idealised piano-like clean tones that attract so many of us to the Fender black and silver panel vintage tones.

What's attractive is simply an inexpensive solution that will get me back into the habit of playing, as I rebuild my guitar playing skills whilst realising my fingers are not as dexterous as they were 30 years ago.

I've read about the negative aspects to these Super Champs, such as the inability to fix crucial elements related to the digital parts were anything to go wrong. However for a few hundred quid, that seems like a worthwhile risk. Unless I've missed something serious, I've not heard of any commonly found inherent problems in these designs.

Though the Mesa Boogie Express 5:15 sounds like an attractive option, I'd prefer not to rush into spending that kind of money. Though I'm tempted to take a chance and blow a fair bit of cash in that direction, it seems more logical to choose the handy, short-to-medium term solution that will give me a chance to go out and properly find out what any kind of expensive long-term options are best suited to me?

Apologies for rambling on for so long. I've had nothing but excellent, helpful advice here so far - hence Iook forward to hearing your thoughts in relation to my situation!

sev112

Love mine. Great for bedroom sounds, and line out too is useful for small to medium gigs.

And it is light ! 

RickLucas

The 12Ax7 is a phase inverter. Great little amp for the money.

mojofilters

sev112 said:

Love mine. Great for bedroom sounds, and line out too is useful for small to medium gigs.

And it is light ! 

Thanks for your response. The lightness is very attractive, especially in terms of getting myself back in the habit of playing regularly to regain my existing skills and hopefully expand upon them. 

I was also attracted by the potential to use the line out. I've no idea if it’s simply a clean DI sound or something more loudspeaker-compensated, but as someone who began playing electric guitar direct into my little hifi system as a youngster, then later sending it straight into a line level input of my PA mixer (via a buffered pedal and DI box) I'd not be afraid to use that for any gigs, especially as I could add inexpensive amp and cab models inline with that signal to FOH if needs be.

I'd be interested to hear how you used the line out, both for recording and live work...does it have any kind of amp and/or speaker compensation?

mojofilters

RickLucas said:

The 12Ax7 is a phase inverter. Great little amp for the money.

Right, that's very useful to know.

Does that mean the simple first channel is just a solid state affair, or is the digital modelling used for both of them?

munckee

Channel one sounds like 90% as good as my Princeton. Channel 2 is brilliant so many sounds available. I’ve played it with a drummer and also at really quiet volumes  

tremendous piece of kit. 

mojofilters

munckee said:

Channel one sounds like 90% as good as my Princeton. Channel 2 is brilliant so many sounds available. I’ve played it with a drummer and also at really quiet volumes  

tremendous piece of kit. 

Thank you, that's rather reassuring to hear...I think I'm gonna go for it, unless the price becomes excessive!

ICBM

mojofilters said:

Does that mean the simple first channel is just a solid state affair, or is the digital modelling used for both of them?

The first channel is digital too, contrary to what you may sometimes read online - I have the schematic. It’s a good model of a Fender clean sound - the other channel does the not-so-Fender stuff.

Petepassion

Great amp for the money. Covers a lot of ground

mojofilters

ICBM said:

mojofilters said:

Does that mean the simple first channel is just a solid state affair, or is the digital modelling used for both of them?

The first channel is digital too, contrary to what you may sometimes read online - I have the schematic. It’s a good model of a Fender clean sound - the other channel does the not-so-Fender stuff.

Thanks for clarifying that, I really appreciate all the extra information!

Unfortunately I missed out on the auction I had my eye on. I got a bit carried away when bidding and pushed the price up to over £250, increasing it by nearly £100 in the last few minutes. Sadly I suspect that might have a negative impact on future prices, when folks filter through the sold listings. 

The Super Champ market doesn't look too good to me right now. I'm still really kicking myself for missing out on the sub £200 auction. Not only was it in mint condition, but also quite literally just down the street from me...stupid eBay and their confusing refusal to use metric timekeeping terminology! (I was 12 hours late. Plus the seller also had a couple of really interesting pedals still up, which I was hoping to try and then potentially offer him cash on top.)

I'm gonna think things over, especially as I've also seen and contacted the seller of a local Hot Rod Deluxe, listed at a very low reserve but got no takers at all. I have a few friends who use those and they seem happy enough, though it's years since I actually heard one in isolation outside of a live gig - hence I'm not certain that's exactly what I'm looking for.

I'm also concerned about the size of a HRDX, but at the right price I might be tempted. However if it's going for anything close to £600, like the Mesa Boogie Express 5:50 referenced in my original post, I'd be much more interested in trying the latter. My limited understanding is that Mesa Boogies tend to be well built, plus can be re-valved without using a multimeter and so forth.

I appreciate I'm now talking about amps that are not only larger but significantly heavier than the Super Champ. Whilst the others might make for a better long term investment, I still like the idea of something portable, cheaper and cheerful - though right now that £250 price tag seems unnecessarily miserable.

Apologies for my rambling rhetoric and the cheesey chiasmus, however if anyone's made it through this far and has any advice or thoughts of any kind to add, I'd be exceedingly grateful.

I've bought and built all kinds of instruments and sound reinforcement equipment over the years, but aside from my (very) old German concert fiddle, this new guitar is the first time I've treated myself to something truly luxurious, as opposed to simply functional and fit for purpose.

I feel like the guitar deserves to be paired up with something similarly indulgent, however I'm just not used to dealing with the rather fickle MI market...as I suspect everyone reading can tell!

57Deluxe

For the original XD - The chn 1 clean is good  - has characterstic 6V6 tone - but also stick a pedal on it or with the chn 2 sounds: #2 # 4# 6 and you get all the incarnations of  Fender amps at their best. Forget the hi-gain and so-called Brit voicings.

It sounds even better through a larger cab/speaker.

Also - a great way to get a Vibratone FX !

  

mojofilters

57Deluxe said:

For the original XD - The chn 1 clean is good  - has characterstic 6V6 tone - but also stick a pedal on it or with the chn 2 sounds: #2 # 4# 6 and you get all the incarnations of  Fender amps at their best. Forget the hi-gain and so-called Brit voicings.

It sounds even better through a larger cab/speaker.

Also - a great way to get a Vibratone FX !

That's good to know there are a few different usable tones in there, and keeping it in the Fender family suits me. I'm not really familiar with the specific Vibratone effect, does it differ significantly from the typical Leslie effect?

One upgrade I'd considered was using a chunky old 12" bass reflex cab I've got. I've now read about quite a few folks who really like the sound of the Super Champ with bigger external speakers, which is reassuring.

Interestingly, right now there are more Super Champs available with an upgraded internal speaker (some aftermarket, some FSR) than the regular version. Unfortunately all these sellers are looking to recover the extra expense, with some going so far as to quote the new retail price of the upgraded speaker to explain how they reached what looks like an especially inflated price tag.

Another frustration is those sellers not willing to ship, even if the seller arranges it (I've noticed several amps where this is stated very clearly) which seems odd. Virtually every used electric guitar that's worth shipping seems to be sold with that option, but not so much with amps. I can see why you wouldn't want to ship a big 4x12 cab, but a relatively light 1x10" combo doesn't sound like a problem. Am I missing something obvious here?

In terms of pricing, I think I'm realistically looking at paying at least £250 (plus shipping) now. The FSR and others with upgraded speakers are over £300, with one at £400 and not even accepting offers! 

To be fair the more expensive options look to be in near mint condition, include the stock footswitch, and a couple have nice covers too. However I think I could find something better at the £400 mark, though maybe £300 is not as expensive as I first thought.

If anyone here has bought or sold a Super Champ in recent years, or even just been within the vicinity of such a transaction, I'd really appreciate hearing your take on these prices.

For the happy long term owners, what ballpark figure would you consider acceptable if you had to replace your amp?

RickLucas

I have bought two recently, one within the last 6 months for £200.

mojofilters

RickLucas said:

I have bought two recently, one within the last 6 months for £200.

Thanks, I appreciate your response.

Buying two eh...you must be quite the fan. Are you doing some stereo or wet/dry thing, or just making sure you've got a backup?

borntohang

Where are you based? I have one in the garage that needs dusting down, but has served me well. 

I tended to use it for solo gigs with a telecaster into the Princeton model with reverb and a bit of compression - very fat and clean at that volume. I did gig it with a band a few times though and while it won't pretend to be a Twin it kept up nicely with the other guitarist's Princeton. Does sound much better into a 112 but the cabs emulations seem to be based for the 10" and I found myself bringing the bass down a lot. I didn't edit any of the backstage stuff for the bigger cab though so possible that could have been changed.

McToot

The Mesa isn't in the same ballpark, though if required, it would be capable of playing one (ie it's LOUD)...

I'd stick to the plan to stay patient and find an X2 - I have the head version which I use through an oversized 1x12 and it's great. HRDs are great but tricky (not impossible) to play quietly. Like the Blues Deluxe, their volume go from nothing to very loud in a fraction of a millimetre on the knob.  

mojofilters

borntohang said:

Where are you based? I have one in the garage that needs dusting down, but has served me well. 

That's very thoughtful, thank you very much! Right now I'm living in the North East.

PAL

I would buy the Spark Mini by Positive Grid it's more than just an amp.You need to check the demos. My honest opinion is
  it sounds better than the Fender X2 I had one and sold it . There not bad but it didn't work for me.
  I have about six amps but I use the Spark Mini for Practice. The other amp I would suggest is the Boss Katana MK II 50 watt
  it's a lot of amp sounds great has a load of effects pedals built in. Also has power attenuator built in to it. Hope this helps. 

RickLucas

 Are you doing some stereo or wet/dry thing, or just making sure you've got a backup?
I bought one on behalf of a friend who lives abroad. 

mojofilters

McToot said:

The Mesa isn't in the same ballpark, though if required, it would be capable of playing one (ie it's LOUD)...

I'd stick to the plan to stay patient and find an X2 - I have the head version which I use through an oversized 1x12 and it's great. HRDs are great but tricky (not impossible) to play quietly. Like the Blues Deluxe, their volume go from nothing to very loud in a fraction of a millimetre on the knob.  

That's interesting, I'd heard the Mesa was very loud, but couldn't find much of a consensus when reading folks comments on various forums. I guess I figured it would have a Fender flavour, given the 6L6 valves.

Presumably that's why the Mesa seems so cheap compared what it originally cost new, and explains why I've seen a few of them sitting unsold on both eBay and Reverb?

Is there any kind of character discernable from the Express 5:50? Most comments and reviews I've read tend to refer to similarities or lack thereof to other Mesa amps, which doesn't really help me at all. I'd always thought they were just about heavy distorted tones until recently, when I noticed That Pedal Mick and some of his guests getting lovely cleans from more current and/or much more expensive Mesa kit.

I've heard that volume knob taper issue is common in that Hot Rod family, which is why those passive potentiometers that plug in between the fx loop are popular. If I had gigs lined up to play, it would make better sense, but right now I've nothing like that planned.

Even if I had the odd gig, if I couldn't borrow an amp I'd normally just hire in something from a backline provider, as that makes my life a lot easier. 

Hence I suspect you're correct that I'm better off sticking to the Super Champ plan. It's a neat balance between price and portability, without going too far in the latter direction and ending up with something that's only ever going to be fit for practice purposes.

I like the Fender look and sound, which is obviously a big plus. In addition all these positive reports of use with an external cab means I know I'll have a bit more flexibility in the future, if needed.

This forum really is helpful in the nicest possible way. I'm a member of most of the usual suspects, though I normally only participate in places like Pro Sound Web, Gearspace live section etc. Whilst other guitar forums can be useful resources for information, I rarely if ever feel inclined to contribute as the tone of discussions is so frequently unfriendly, sometimes quite unpleasant - hence I really value the kind folks here, and contributing feels very comfortable for a newcomer.

mojofilters

PAL said:

I would buy the Spark Mini by Positive Grid it's more than just an amp.You need to check the demos. My honest opinion is
  it sounds better than the Fender X2 I had one and sold it . There not bad but it didn't work for me.
  I have about six amps but I use the Spark Mini for Practice. The other amp I would suggest is the Boss Katana MK II 50 watt
  it's a lot of amp sounds great has a load of effects pedals built in. Also has power attenuator built in to it. Hope this helps. 

I can see your logic in suggesting the Spark. Maybe I need to do a bit more research, as I thought the mini was basically just a little version of the regular one? When that came out it looked interesting, but I'd probably have little to no use for most of the fancy technology in there. It certainly can't help to take a look though.

I have considered both the Katana and the Catalyst. Unfortunately so far I've not got around to trying either of them. Having seen tidy used examples of the smallest models of each turn up on eBay and Reverb, I really should make the effort to take a guitar into town again and give both a try. 

I don't really care for the aesthetic, and I got the impression the single 12" models were actually a bit bigger than the Blues Junior. I haven't heard a Blues Jr in quite a while, but to be honest if I was going to end up with a 1x12" combo, I'd give that a go. I did intend to try a Blues Jr since despite the mixed reviews they're obviously still very popular, so popular that when I last went around the local guitar shops I couldn't find anywhere that had one in stock! 

Is there a big difference between the Katana mk1 and mk2? The mk2 always seems to be the model I hear specified, I just didn't know if that was due to substantial changes between the two, or simply because the mk2 has been around for several years now. Like I mentioned, I've noticed used examples going pretty cheaply, but they might have all been the older model.

I'll definitely put the Katana on my list to try, I'm just stuck at home right now with a sick relative so getting out and about has been tricky. Can UK folks get custom artwork printed onto the Spark, or is that just an American thing? It would certainly be a neat way to offset the rather bland and unappealing aesthetic!