Struggling to achieve alt picking speed

sjo89

I'm on a mini quest right now to really develop my speed (mainly cos i just wanna have fun and shred, something i've never been able to do well). I'm a big fan of the likes of Sam Coulson - really like that rapid fire pentatonic stuff and like that its conceptually very simple. 

Issue I'm having is finding a RH position that's comfortable, whilst also offering max speed. I find resting the heel of my hand on bass strings for muting and pinky on the pickguard to be most comfortable, but as i get fast I find my pink begins to push against pickguard and raise my wrist off strings slightly, causing background noise issues. I also find I have a wiff of Zakk Wylde to my speed picking technique, whereby it comes from the elbow a little, meaning my wrist is rubbing on the strings side-to-side, again creating muting issues.

Another issues is the side of my hand can very gently graze the strings by the bridge when playing at speed, creating an annoying "zing"/muted sound i don't want.

Fast, cross string alt picking is not something that comes naturally to me at all!

roberty

Your pinkie should be nice and loose. Sounds like there may be some tension there as you speed up, going from your description. It can rest but should not anchor ideally

I would recommend familiarising yourself with Troy Grady's pick slanting analysis. You don't have to go deep, just the basic concept is enough

This is my go-to recommendation for learning or re-learning the basics 

roberty

I still watch that Govan video from time to time, to make sure I haven't strayed from the path as it were

sjo89

Thanks. I'm familiar with all that and Troy Grady. Interestingly Guthrie talks about resting on the base of his thumb, rather than the heel of his hand. Issue I have is i wanted to downward pick slant, but when I do, it raises my wrist off the strings a little and also pulls my hand down onto strings causing some palm muting.

roberty

sjo89 said:

Thanks. I'm familiar with all that and Troy Grady. Interestingly Guthrie talks about resting on the base of his thumb, rather than the heel of his hand. Issue I have is i wanted to downward pick slant, but when I do, it raises my wrist off the strings a little and also pulls my hand down onto strings causing some palm muting.

Ah okay. I am muting with the thumb part of my hand for down and up slant. The angle I use is very slight. On the low E string I automatically angle up a bit since there is nothing to mute, unless palm muting. Not sure if this helps but it is what I do

digitalkettle

I'm forever messing with this...I think I might be having another breakthrough (keeping a loose fist shape and not anchoring the picking hand so much).

Sounds like you're primarily a USX player. What kind of thing are you trying to play and at what tempo? And, ultimately, any close-up playing clips?

sjo89

digitalkettle said:

I'm forever messing with this...I think I might be having another breakthrough (keeping a loose fist shape and not anchoring the picking hand so much).

Sounds like you're primarily a USX player. What kind of thing are you trying to play and at what tempo? And, ultimately, any close-up playing clips?

Right now just fast 2NPS pentatonic stuff - I've experimented with the fist shape, and whilst my muting and accuracy improves - my speed is limited and I also find it hard to palm mute and do quick string crossings this way. Basically, there are pros and cons to all the various permutations of hand shapes/positions and the one that I can play "cleanest" with, is also the one that is the slowest for me and feels quite unnatural 

digitalkettle

• Even of number of notes per string: yay!
• Only two per string: meh...not enough time to settle on one string before you have to 'track' over to the next one

What's it like if you play the same speed/subdivisions but two of each note (or three or four)?

i.e. this...                ...instead of this...
e|---------5-5-8-8-|      |-----5-8-|       
b|-5-5-8-8---------|      |-5-8-----|

Lewy

Out of interest, what kind of tempo can you play the sort of thing you want to now?

If your speed picking motion has a bit of elbow in it (or like mine a LOT of elbow in it) then I find I really have to concentrate on making sure that elbow motion is still there when I'm practicing slowly, otherwise you're not practicing the same coordination slow as when you speed up. There's a natural tendency to use less elbow and more wrist when you play slowly because playing with your elbow slowly feels weird and unmusical, frankly, but that's the difference between playing slowly and "shredding in slow motion" as @Clarky would put it

sjo89

Lewy said:

Out of interest, what kind of tempo can you play the sort of thing you want to now?

If your speed picking motion has a bit of elbow in it (or like mine a LOT of elbow in it) then I find I really have to concentrate on making sure that elbow motion is still there when I'm practicing slowly, otherwise you're not practicing the same coordination slow as when you speed up. There's a natural tendency to use less elbow and more wrist when you play slowly because playing with your elbow slowly feels weird and unmusical, frankly, but that's the difference between playing slowly and "shredding in slow motion" as @Clarky would put it

I'd say 1/16th notes around 142-145bpm is my limit before it starts to get messy. I think I'm going to have to just beast this and try to get used to keeping my pinky out of the way to avoid muting strings accidentally. I also think tension at speed is unavoidable, its just about keeping it under control and "taut", rather than rigid. 

sjo89

digitalkettle said:

• Even of number of notes per string: yay!
• Only two per string: meh...not enough time to settle on one string before you have to 'track' over to the next one

What's it like if you play the same speed/subdivisions but two of each note (or three or four)?

i.e. this...                ...instead of this...
e|---------5-5-8-8-|      |-----5-8-|       
b|-5-5-8-8---------|      |-5-8-----|

I can do the former faster obviously but thats also a lot to do with the burden on the left hand being much less.

digitalkettle

sjo89 said:

digitalkettle said:

• Even of number of notes per string: yay!
• Only two per string: meh...not enough time to settle on one string before you have to 'track' over to the next one

What's it like if you play the same speed/subdivisions but two of each note (or three or four)?

i.e. this...                ...instead of this...
e|---------5-5-8-8-|      |-----5-8-|       
b|-5-5-8-8---------|      |-5-8-----|

I can do the former faster obviously but thats also a lot to do with the burden on the left hand being much less.

Take the left hand out of it then...

e|---------8-8-8-8-|      |-----8-8-|       
b|-5-5-5-5---------|      |-5-5-----|

Right hand tracking is what I'm struggling with...especially when descending with USX (or ascending with DSX).

axisus

I'm a mediocre guitar player in every way, but for some reason alt picking was totally natural and easy for me from day one. Sorry, not helpful but it's the one thing I was good at so I feel the need to pipe up. 

sjo89

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZBt8kqADAY&ab_channel=golfboy1989

So I filmed myself working on this 2NPS stuff. Have to say I'm amazed at how much my wrist and forearm are moving about at speed. You can also here how as I speed up my wrist drops and starts to mute B string.

digitalkettle

sjo89 said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZBt8kqADAY&ab_channel=golfboy1989

So I filmed myself working on this 2NPS stuff. Have to say I'm amazed at how much my wrist and forearm are moving about at speed. You can also here how as I speed up my wrist drops and starts to mute B string.

Firstly, that's already pretty impressive and a great starting place!

Things I think are worth mentioning:

• I think your right hand is executing a double-escape motion: you're getting above the string plane after every string contact (see 0:24 at half speed)
• If there's any left hand tension (which seems evident from that pinky), maybe getting the thumb behind the centre of the neck might help...it's hard not to be tense in other areas if you're tense in one area

roberty

It does look good mate. It sounds to me like synchronisation is what is limiting your speed rather than picking technique 

I use a bit of rotational forearm movement in my picking motion as well as side to side at the wrist, not sure if that's good for everyone though. Depending on what I'm doing there will be different amounts of each movement in the motion

sjo89

digitalkettle said:

sjo89 said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZBt8kqADAY&ab_channel=golfboy1989

So I filmed myself working on this 2NPS stuff. Have to say I'm amazed at how much my wrist and forearm are moving about at speed. You can also here how as I speed up my wrist drops and starts to mute B string.

Firstly, that's already pretty impressive and a great starting place!

Things I think are worth mentioning:

• I think your right hand is executing a double-escape motion: you're getting above the string plane after every string contact (see 0:24 at half speed)
• If there's any left hand tension (which seems evident from that pinky), maybe getting the thumb behind the centre of the neck might help...it's hard not to be tense in other areas if you're tense in one area

Yes I was very surprised to see I was doing double escape at speed and at speed there is for sure tension I need to reduce, though I don't think it's possible or necessary to reduce it entirely. 

I think the double escape is me attempting to counter my wrist dropping down the strings and muting them...which as you can hear happens anyway. I think when I get tense my wrist wants to flex and the heel of my hand wants to come down.

sjo89

roberty said:

It does look good mate. It sounds to me like synchronisation is what is limiting your speed rather than picking technique 

I use a bit of rotational forearm movement in my picking motion as well as side to side at the wrist, not sure if that's good for everyone though. Depending on what I'm doing there will be different amounts of each movement in the motion

Defo issues with sync no doubt. I'm very much not trying to rotate my forearm so I was very surprised to see how U shaped my motion is at speed.

digitalkettle

sjo89 said:

Yes I was very surprised to see I was doing double escape at speed and at speed there is for sure tension I need to reduce, though I don't think it's possible or necessary to reduce it entirely. 

I think the double escape is me attempting to counter my wrist dropping down the strings and muting them...which as you can hear happens anyway. I think when I get tense my wrist wants to flex and the heel of my hand wants to come down.

I'd agree there: there's always some tension required...just not white-knuckle stuff.

I always keep an eye on Ben Eller's YT channel. In the most recent exercise, which just happens to be about DPS, he's talking about using a 'practice mode' where you make really obvious motions to ingrain what you want your picking hand to do (obviously this doesn't quite gel with the 'start fast' CtC approach).


Final thought for now: try extending your practice run to cover more strings and don't loop from the top back round again without a brief pause...and maybe incorporate speed variances to give you a tiny breather, e.g.

DannyP

Do you guys feel there's such a thing as a personal speed limit though?

I've come to the conclusion I just don't have the "fast-twitch" muscles in my fingers to ever get up to the speeds of a metal player. Anything faster than Jimmy Page has always eluded me.

I think that's just down to my physiology and metabolism - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6172607/

I can appear quick to the layman with techniques like sweeping, legato and banjo-rolling, but I feel ultrafast stuff will always be beyond my capabilities.

digitalkettle

DannyP said:

Do you guys feel there's such a thing as a personal speed limit though?
...

Obviously, my incredibly tasteful sensibilities step in at some point

There must be individual speed limits...but they'll all be faster than you'd ever require in the real world. Not to sound like a CtC evangelist but there's a vid where, without a guitar in sight, they test certain relevant motions (such as knocking on a table) and it's clearly not hard to knock 8th notes well in excess of 200bpm. Once applied to the guitar, this equates to belting out 16th notes with alternate picking.

DannyP said:

...
I can appear quick to the layman with techniques like sweeping, legato and banjo-rolling, but I feel ultrafast stuff will always be beyond my capabilities.

That sounds far more interesting to me: when your playing brings together a personal blend of techniques rather than just being an alternate picking shred-beast...as long as you're in charge of when it happens.