Satin or gloss? (And other questions.)

Tannin

Paul sent me a text today. He has made good progress on my new baritone guitar and is ready to start putting the finish on. 
So he wants me to tell him:



1: Gloss or satin finish? 

2: Fretwire: standard nickel/Silver? EVO Gold? Or stainless steel?

3: What gauge frets? (Medium? Jumbo?)



1: I'm leaning towards a satin finish, but welcome your thoughts. 

3: I don't understand fret gauges or know what the names mean, but I know that I am happy with the ones you get on most modern guitars (Martin, Maton, Taylor, etc.) and mildly dislike those very narrow vintage-style ones my Guild has. So something middle of the road and standard, I guess. I'll look at my existing baritone too - that plays nicely, so the samme as that one would make sense.

2: I'm thinking EVO Gold. Fret wear isn't likely to be an issue with this guitar. Being a baritone, I won't spend hours and hours playing it each day - my tendons and joints wouldn't like that. I do all of my practicing and noodling and general mucking about (plus a lot of my "serious playing") on the standard guitars and reserve the current baritone for real playing, not fiddling about.  I'd expect to do the same with the new one. So I won't be putting all that much wear on the frets and I'm over 60 so it doesn't haver to last any longer than I do. 

Secondly, we are using Tiger Myrtle for the fretboard, which is only a medium-hard timber (harder than mahogany, walnut, Blackwood, or European Maple, softer than Rock Maple, rosewood or ebony). So fretboard wear is a possibility given moderate to heavy use, so there seems little point in going for (say) stainless frets. 

On balance, I'm thinking EVO Gold, but welcome your thoughts.

(The pictures are from a couple of months ago. He's done the headstock now - using Musk Daisy burl instead of the Huon Pine we were going to use, see some samples here http://www.distinctivetimbers.com.au/products/musk/tasmanian_musk.htm - and fitted the arm rest. I'm not sure why it's easier to make and bind the top and then cut an arm rest later but that's the way he choose to do it. I'm sure there is some logic to that.)

TheMadMick

As with all these things, there are compromises. Bluntly, you need to decide which suit you best.

I would avoid the narrow fret wire but it is nice if the frets are nice and low. It makes fretting easier, improves intonation as the action can be lower - especially if you are getting on (as I am)

The hardness of the fret board is not a major concern as long as it's hard enough. If your luthier has agreed the material, then it should be OK. It is probably more important to keep your left had finger nails short. I'd also consult the luthier about oiling the fret board as it can take a time for the wood to gain a tough external oiled skin and thus minimise fret board wear.

Above all, enjoy the journey and enjoy the product.

ArchtopDave

Personally, I'm someone who likes gloss finish on the Body and Headstock (though not the over shiny gloss finish). I'm perfectly happy with gloss Neck, though I do have a guitar, that was made for me, that has a satin Neck finish which has a nice feel to it.

Again, the same guitar has Evo Gold fretwire….I actually didn't specify this, but it looks really good. No idea about the potential for wear, but I've had the guitar for several years now, and it all still looks fine.

thomasross20

Gloss Vs satin is difficult. All my satin Larrivee feel and sound fantastic. The gloss can give the sound an edge (a good one on my 05 Larry's) and doesn't make noises when moving against the body which is a plus. Satin is so so so nice, though. I literally just tried a gloss p-05 and prefer the sound of my p-03, though...  Which is satin.

I literally just played a guitar with EVO frets. Imo nothing particularly special, just harder wearing frets. I wouldn't go SS. I have those on my Suhr and they're great but a bit more pingy and you want to keep your acoustic sounding woody. I'd go medium size, not thin or fat. Can't go wrong with middle ground. 

Roland

1. Satin. It’s easier to photograph, and doesn’t feel as sticky in hot weather.
2. We’re told that EVO alloy is no longer made. If your man has got a stock of EVO fret wire then let him use it.
3. Wire gauge is so much a personal choice. Go with what’s on your favourite neck.

sev112

I love satin on my Taylor and Dowina.  Doesn’t get sticky or show finger prints so much

prob is that satin tends to go “glossy” under my right forearm that no amount of wiping down and cleaning gets rid of

thomasross20

That's true re EVO wire, heard it from a luthier this morning.

BillDL

As mentioned by @sev112 satin finishes can begin to get glossy in the areas of continual body contact like under the forearm or if you use your pinky on the top for hand support and don't have a pickguard fitted.  Nevertheless I would be inclined to ask for that particular guitar to be finished entirely in satin.  The ideal feel for me would be gloss body and headstock face and satin neck, but where that might be fine on an electric guitar with a bolt-on neck, it can look strange on an acoustic guitar (I have one with this finish) because the heel needs to be satin against the gloss sides.  On a paler wood neck it might not be nearly as obvious though.

Evo fretwire has, as it's name infers, a golden hue and can look a bit odd if the tuners are bright chrome.  For gauge I would just measure my favoured acoustic guitar's frets and provide them to the luthier as a guide for fretwire selection.

Soupman

The aesthetics of this guitar look great. No bling.
 IMO it begs for a satin finish. Yes  it will slowly polish to a shine in areas of contact, but that's just showing normal use.
Looking forward to seeing the finished article.
 
 

Tannin

Cheers all and thanks.

I'll pop in to Hobart and finalise those choices tomorrow after (yuk!) I'm finished at the dentist. I think I'll stock with satin all over, ask for EVO Gold if he's got it, and in a medium profile. 

The tuners are gold Gotohs with black knobs, so goldish frets will work well with that.  I'm fine with the way satin finishes get a sheen with use. I rather like that in fact. I look at some of my gloss-finished guitars, the Maton WA May in particular, and think how great that looks, but then I look at a couple of the satin finish ones (such as the Cole Clark and the concert-size one Paul made a few years ago) and they look great too. 

More progress pictures soon, with any luck.

(Of the guitar, I mean, not my new tooth - which is even more expensive than the damn guitar!)

Smellyfingers

I don’t know  if it is actually 100% true, but I think gloss might give better long term protection to the wood, from the elements.

 Whereas satin might open up/ make the guitar sound better with sooner or with less playing.

thomasross20

I also like how satin shines with use. Yes a very cool look for a guitar that's actually been used. Less bling nice.. my Halcyon will also be satin with little bling but a potentially stunning back and sides.

Gloss protects better and also affects tone nicely but satin is also very open sounding and completely fine if taken care of. I've had a satin Larrivee for 25 years and it's been fine. 

I'm considering the Evo frets for my OM-02 given they're about to go extinct..

Tannin

Good points @Smellyfingers.

I don't think opening up will be an issue with this one: it is a huge top (450mm across - for comparison, a standard Martin dreadnought is only 397mm across the lower bout), falcate braced (very light, curved King Billy Pine and carbon fibre), and made from King Billy Pine, which is very light and soft (similar to cedar). So my guess is that it will sound pretty much the same this year as it does in 5 years time. 

Whether it is wise to make such a large baritone guitar with such a light and delicate top ... well, we will find out soon enough! I shouldn't think it will have any structural issues - Paul is a careful and experienced worker - but whether that thin, light top will sound right for the style of instrument, that's a wait-and-see. 

Tannin

All done. Satin finish, medium EVO Gold frets. (Paul has a great big roll of it, so supply won't be an issue.)

The guitar after mine, another of Paul's concert size instruments, is well underway. It was actually supposed to be the one next after that in the build queue (third behind me) but the next chap said to build this other one first.

Apparently the buyer saw my guitar under construction and loved the Southern Sassafras. Could he buy that guitar? No, it is a commissioned work, already sold. Could he have one made from that same beautiful timber?  Yes, by all means. Could he have it a bit sooner rather than a bit later? (He is 93 years old and might not be here to see it if it takes two or three years.) 

So the chap behind me in the queue said "I can wait, do the other one first". I told Paul I feel the same way - if it takes a bit longer to finish mine while he builds the next one, that's fine. 

thomasross20

Did he have any comments re tonality of Evo frets? 

Oh apologies, is that Sassafras? I thought it was going to be walnut. I've heard Sassafras has an eq hump in the bass/lower mids which would be quite nice (actually my Bhilwara has a bit of this and it's nice.. you get the bass naturally without any scalloping of braces)

That's very good of you

ICBM

I have to say I don’t like satin tops, although I’m fine with backs, sides and necks. I just find satin looks and feels a bit cheap and half-finished on the front of the guitar. I don’t know for sure if there’s a tone difference, but if there is then I prefer gloss for that as well - the satin guitars I’ve owned seemed to be possibly a bit softer-sounding but lacking sparkle.

I don’t like huge frets, everything else is OK. I’m not a fan of stainless steel, I think there is a tone difference and I don’t particularly like it.

That’s just me, of course… but some of these things matter more to some people than others, so make sure you pick *your* preferences and not what you’re told is “right”.

Tannin

Cheers @ICBM. Yes, that's the one thing I keep changing my mind about - satin v gloss for the top. Maybe I'll call him in the morning and ask him to make the top gloss. And maybe I won't. In the end, I like both sorts, it's not going to matter. Of my 6 current guitars, 3 are satin, 3 are gloss, and I didn't choose any of them because it was satin or gloss.

I don't think so, @thomasross20. Paul did comment that it was longer wearing than standard nickel-silver, fairly easy to work, and would look great with those timber colours and the gold Gotohs. And also that stainless can sound a bit odd. My understanding (from further up this thread was it? - no, somewhere else) is that EVO Gold adds a little top end to the sound. If so, that's no bad thing: a bit of top end snap adds crispness and avoids muddyness for low notes. (The Rock Maple back on my other baritone does exactly this to good effect.) And if not, well, no loss.

My Brook guitar is indeed walnut and yew, a concert-size 12-fret made from all-British timbers (except for the European Spruce top). (Well, 12.5 fret - almost a 12-fret.) But that one will be my 2024 guitar.

This one is my 2023 guitar. (I'm on a self-imposed ration - one guitar a year until I run out of money or room to put them out in, whichever happens first.)  It is a very large baritone jumbo (18 inch lower bout) with a 29-inch scale length and a 13 fret neck-body join. Oh, and an arm rest now. It looks great and works well. Just that little bit more comfortable to play.

The back and sides are Southern Sassafras (Atherosperma moschatum) from southern Australia, not White or Common Sassafras (Sassafras albium) from the eastern USA. Despite the similar-sounding names, they are not particularly related. Both are in the order Laurales, but then so are more than 2000 other trees, and they are in different families. A biological order can cover a lot of ground - for example, wolves, sea lions, bears and domestic cats are all in one order.

White Sassafras doesn't seem to be used as a tonewood: it is very light and soft for a hardwood, about the same as Douglas Fir, Cedro (aka "Spanish Cedar", much used for acoustic necks), Port Orford Cedar (used for tops), and Spanish Cypress (used for classical guitar bodies). Of those just mentioned, White Sassafras and Cedro are the only hardwoods. (Cedro is vaguely related to mahogany.)  It is, however, fairly commonly used as an electric guitar body wood, in particular as a like-for-like replacement for Swamp Ash, which has been very hard hit by disease in recent years and is now rare.

Southern Sassafras is uncommon (because it is quite rare) but nevertheless well known as a tonewood. It is also, usually incorrectly, called "Blackheart Sassafras". Blackheart is the same tree but with a fungus infection. (See my guitar above for an example.) Southern Sassafras is medium-heavy and medium-hard, pretty similar in its specs to Blackwood or Koa.

Taylor get quite carried away about it:

 Goes Well With: A variety of playing styles. It can be a bit of a chameleon in that its tonal personality tends to reflect the player. A person might bring out more of a mahogany sound, or rosewood, maple, walnut or something else depending on the playing approach and the body style of the guitar.

Blackheart sassafras is an exotically beautiful variation on the more common sassafras tree that’s native to Tasmania. The “blackheart” distinction refers to dark, dramatic striping in the otherwise blond-colored wood, which is caused by fungi that form in the heartwood of the tree. Its tonal properties give it a truly unique sonic personality compared to other tonewoods. It blends some of the dry, woody response of walnut or mahogany; the note separation and focus of maple or myrtle; and the top-end overtones of rosewood.

^ This tries to say so much that it says nothing, and get some facts wrong. (It is, of course, native to Australia, not just Tasmania.) Oh well, what did we expect from the people who assured us that V-class bracing improves intonation!?

Let's just say that Australian luthiers like working with it and reckon it does a good job. 

thomasross20

Very interesting... 


There are a few videos with this tonewood, Taylor and Halcyon. It's certainly different. Do you know if, like mahogany, it has a narrow EQ? Maybe not! Unrelated but I would also love to try Indian Laurel, which I hear is fantastic. In any case, I think that is a very interesting combination...! 

thomasross20

Tannin have you considered a harp guitar? 
Lol... I was just listening to Muriel Anderson's "view from space" which uses one. Magical.

earwighoney

thomasross20 said:

Tannin have you considered a harp guitar? 
Lol... I was just listening to Muriel Anderson's "view from space" which uses one. Magical.

I've tried one. Even if you don't pluck the additional strings, they resonate and it's quite something.

But they are usually enormous and the one I played was like plucking strings on a wardrobe. 

thomasross20

Haha that's funny - amazing you got to try one!

Btw European top on the Brook should be good. There are so many top choices..  I love creamy moon spruce / European and want to try Lutz.