How to compensate/compromise between "good" headphones for mixing, and crap ones for listening?

thecolourbox

I've tried googling this and generally the results are around why stuff sounds good on headphones but then doesn't on monitors, which I already understand and that is fine. I only really listen to my own music on headphones so i don't really care that much how they sound through speakers. And my monitor speakers are not very good anyway.

But what I'm trying to work out, is how to compensate things so that I get more of the fullness (especially lower frequency sounds) that I can hear when I'm using my "proper" headphones whilst mixing and using my audio interface, that fall away completely when I later listen to the exported MP3 or Wav through normal consumer style earphones. 

I used to compensate for my rubbish studio monitors by cranking up the bass on the amp modelling unit I was using, both the eq on the amp and on the global EQ, it sounded great through the speakers but if I recorded or used headphones it was SO LOUD on the bass. I feel like compensating the lower frequencies to allow for the crap sound of normal level earbuds will surely just ruin the experience for me on my nicer headphones? I suppose I could do do two different versions but I work quickly as I don't really enjoy using recording software for very long so by the time I've got it sounded adequate I've normally already lost the will to live and just want to hear it as it is.

I realise that this question sounds a bit like "Why does something sound nice on nice headphones and rubbish on rubbish ones" but that's not what I mean. Proper songs sound fine on the rubbish headphones, so there's clearly a compromise to be found somewhere that helps one without ruining the other?

Or is it just the impact of listening through the interface? I can't use my nicer headphones through the laptop directly as it's only got a big jack. Is it just a case of trying to mix using my crap earphones?

I don't really know if my "nicer" headphones are actually any good but they sound nice enough to me - they are Sennheiser HD579, is it the case that they just aren't very good in a different way and are just more bassy to make up for being rubbish?

Good Example would be this Fretboard composition challenge entry, in my Cubase session and even on the exported file, the bassy synth pad thing sounds really full and nice whereas through normal earphones and my work headset, you can't hardly hear it and it just sounds like I forgot to export half the arrangement on the verses.


I know there's the element of trial and error but my concentration span and patience levels are not great so would really appreciate some general shoves in the right direction (ideally using short words if possible as I'm not the brightest spark).

Thank you
Matt

drofluf

Doesn’t help the question but you can get an adapter like this https://www.amazon.co.uk/PENCILUPNOSE©-Headphone-Adapter-Converter-Keyboard/dp/B09GPV9VLL/ref=sr_1_4?adgrpid=54753981578&hvadid=259075134439&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9046133&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=8614531990053564442&hvtargid=kwd-314470095827&hydadcr=5085_1827850&keywords=1%2F4+to+1%2F8+jack+adapter&qid=1694186118&sr=8-4 so you can plug your good headphones into your laptop. 

drofluf

My link has been mangled but I found it by putting this: 1/4 to 1/8 jack adapter into Google

thecolourbox

Yes I had one before and it broke my old laptop's headphone output as it got snapped off while left in there I like being able to use the smaller earphones though as they are much more comfortable whilst lazing on the sofa, and the leather/pleather is wearing a bit thin on my nicer ones anyway so would ideally preserve them for longer by using them whilst recording or playing and not while idling on the sofa.
Thanks for the suggestion though, makes sense, i'm just an awkward sod

flying_pie

My rough process is to mix and master - more recently comparing my track with a similar genre pro track as a reference - then export to a private link on SoundCloud which I listen to in my car (rubbish sound system), my wife's car (nicer sound system) and at least a couple of pairs of headphones including pricy and cheap. I might also double check how it sounds just through phone speakers.

I make a note of what can be lacking on the rubbish gear and tweak it until it sounds better but also making sure it's not now overdone on the better gear. Sometimes you've just got to accept that things sound a bit crap on crap gear. I need to learn way more about mastering but have found that multi band compression can play a huge part.

I also might send my final master link to a friend to give a perspective with fresh ears

blobb

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/mixing-on-headphones

Or if fancy spedning some money

https://www.sonarworks.com/

The other thing to consider is who and how is the listener listening to the tracks you are mixing? I'm really the only one who listens to my own stuff (sad sack, yes I know) but just have to make sure it's ok on my headphones or my hi-fi or whatever.  Are you producing a top selling album? If not does it matter?

thecolourbox

flying_pie said:

My rough process is to mix and master - more recently comparing my track with a similar genre pro track as a reference - then export to a private link on SoundCloud which I listen to in my car (rubbish sound system), my wife's car (nicer sound system) and at least a couple of pairs of headphones including pricy and cheap. I might also double check how it sounds just through phone speakers.

I make a note of what can be lacking on the rubbish gear and tweak it until it sounds better but also making sure it's not now overdone on the better gear. Sometimes you've just got to accept that things sound a bit crap on crap gear. I need to learn way more about mastering but have found that multi band compression can play a huge part.

I also might send my final master link to a friend to give a perspective with fresh ears

I suppose that's the only way isn't it, trial and error. I generally don't spend long enough on anything to really do those things (even though I'd be only needing to do Nice Headphones, Consumer Earphones, and phone speaker. My car doesn't have a sound system other than a radio). I did my two entries for the Composition Challenge thing in a few hours from scratch yesterday morning and I'd already lost the will to live by lunchtime so just sent them off and uploaded myself, then abandoned them. It's only since I've listened back a few times that i've been reminded of this problem and how i've struggled compensating before.

I don't really have anybody to send stuff to who like the same things as me, so whenever i've tried to do that with anybody it's usually just ended up in an argument.

blobb said:

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/mixing-on-headphones

Or if fancy spedning some money

https://www.sonarworks.com/

The other thing to consider is who and how is the listener listening to the tracks you are mixing? I'm really the only one who listens to my own stuff (sad sack, yes I know) but just have to make sure it's ok on my headphones or my hi-fi or whatever.  Are you producing a top selling album? If not does it matter?

I'll reread the Soundonsound thing again as it's interesting and good to know for typical use case and knowledge is a good thing. But I guess being the millennial snowflake I am, I don't really think I am a typical use case. I listen to a lot of music on headphones, so I've always thought it made sense for me to mix that way as that's how I'm used to hearing things. I struggle with listening to speakers or "live" sound in general, I get distracted by background noises and struggle to hear louder or bassier sounds as well as the quieter trebly noises, so I just don't bother listening that way. Apart from when I share stuff on here nobody ever hears my music, I've got a lot of stuff written and recorded that never sees the light of day, I don't really have any friends to share it with and my family are usually quite disparaging about it f I share anything so my listenership is a crowd of 1. However, i'd still argue that it does matter because it's my therapy and even though I'm never going to sell any music, it doesn't necessarily mean I shouldn't care about it. Otherwise we'd all be playing £60 Fazely guitars through an Amplug right?

goldtop

Can confirm that there's a bass sound that's so weak in the background that it sounds like something is wrong. It's there from the start of the song, I think?

That's when listening on my 'downstairs headphones' (Bose QC in passive mode). I'll try with monitors and/or AKG headphones later.

(Nice song, BTW).

thecolourbox

Yes I played the bass synth pad all the way through from the first beat and filled the space out beneath everything else beautifully through my headphones. I agree it sounds like a mistake or weird artefact on normal earphones. I'm beginning to think even more so that it's my headphones being very strong in certain frequencies maybe, but they do really sound nice to me - perhaps they need to only be for listening to music and not for producing it

goldtop

Just tried our Sennheiser 433 consumer headphones - also gives the same weak bass. It sounds almost like a super-filtered bass tone, but with such a soft attack that it almost sounds like you've loaded the wrong VST. Not much more than a fundamental.

Annoyingly, I see that I've left my Beyer's at work. Will try some monitors tomorrow.

thecolourbox

I did used to have issues exporting from cubase whereby the reverb was always WAY bigger on the export than the cubase project, so I used to have to guess how much to reduce the reverb by in the project so it sounded right on the export. That was solved by exposing in real time on massive buffer sizes.

However when I listened to the export on my Sennheiser headphones through the audio interface it did sound the same, so I don't think it is a similar issue to the weird reverb thing I had before.

I think Perhaps the headphones are just the equivalent of TV sound system type things where they big up certain frequencies to make them sound better

thecolourbox

Listen to Are You Ok Inside V2 by thecolourbox on #SoundCloud

https://on.soundcloud.com/4qnjx

I just did the thing again this evening with my interface (gosh the laptop sounds utterly atrocious by itself) and just redid the bass instead and went heavy handed with it. The original synth pad sound I played in manually and recorded so I had no midi data for it as my keyboard only works 50% of the time for that kind of thing. So I just drew it in instead, played through a plug in (Martinique key bass model of an old bass keyboard) and copied and pasted to the Spitfire BBC orchestra plugin in plucked doubled basses. I think it sounds more present so I think I just need to get used to over doing the bass compared to what I like to hear in cubase, if I expect it to be heard outside of that setup 

AntonHunter

goldtop said:

...

It sounds almost like a super-filtered bass tone, but with such a soft attack that it almost sounds like you've loaded the wrong VST. Not much more than a fundamental.

I think this might be key. Choosing bass sounds with some higher harmonic content (or maybe adding some in with some saturation or exciter or something?) is a way of making your mixes translate onto smaller speakers. Think of how when reggae bass gets really huge and they add a palm-muted guitar part doubling the line so that you got the power from the bass, but the definition from the guitar.

flying_pie

thecolourbox said:

flying_pie said:

My rough process is ....

I suppose that's the only way isn't it, trial and error. I generally don't spend long enough on anything to really do those things (even though I'd be only needing to do Nice Headphones, Consumer Earphones, and phone speaker. My car doesn't have a sound system other than a radio). I did my two entries for the Composition Challenge thing in a few hours from scratch yesterday morning and I'd already lost the will to live by lunchtime so just sent them off and uploaded myself, then abandoned them. It's only since I've listened back a few times that i've been reminded of this problem and how i've struggled compensating before.

I don't really have anybody to send stuff to who like the same things as me, so whenever i've tried to do that with anybody it's usually just ended up in an argument.

It becomes less trial and error as you get used to it.

@AntonHunter has made an excellent point about adding saturation to  bass to help with cheaper speakers. I often add some saturation to bass, drums (for the low end) and vocals (often for a bit of higher end fizz). II do that in the individual tracks rather than in the master channel.

Another bass trick is to record the dry bass guitar (or midi keys bass) and duplicate that to two or three tracks. You use that to make very different tones - for example one very much lower end, another which is bright and accentuating the transients and perhaps a third middle of the road tone, then you can blend the tracks to get a bit more definition and effective saturation.

BTW if you ever need a fresh pair of ears feel free to give me a shout. I might record different stuff to you but am always happy to give a (honest but moderately ill-informed) opinion

goldtop

Original version is significantly better on my little monitors (just 4in M-Audios here). BUT ... it's also better listening via my interface's headphone output than my MacBook Air headphone output (using the same HD433 headphones). So it seems that there's some bass cut on the laptop's headphone output. 

The new version has more meat (harmonics, plus those string plucks) although now I've listened to the original one, V2 feels unsubtle! You can't win.

thecolourbox

Thanks chaps for the musings, all very useful and helpful

I'm not too bothered about losing subtlety, that's not my strength in any case aha. 

Musicwolf

The good / bad news is that you are not alone.  One of the biggest, if not the biggest, challenges facing the home mix engineer is mix translation.  Whether you mix on monitors or headphones your playback system will be far from perfect (in the case of monitors this system includes the room itself).  I liken it to trying to paint a picture it a room lit by a colored light.  You choose colours that look right in that environment but take the painting into another room with different light and suddenly everything looks very strange.  What you need, and what professional studios spend a small fortune trying to achieve, is the acoustic equivalent of strong, natural, light.

Problems of mix translation are particularly noticeable in the bottom end.  In your case I would say that you have picked a bass tone which is close to the cutoff point of many headphones.  As has already been pointed out you need to generate some higher harmonics.

From a practical point of view, you need to review your mixes on as many systems as you have available.

thecolourbox

Would it be worth me using some kind of Hi Pass/Low Filter thing on the master channel in future perhaps? Ie everything below a certain frequency just doesn't get through, so I can get used to mixing what will sound good on stuff where the bass frequencies are not as low or as full as those on my personal headphones?

Musicwolf

thecolourbox said:

Would it be worth me using some kind of Hi Pass/Low Filter thing on the master channel in future perhaps? Ie everything below a certain frequency just doesn't get through, so I can get used to mixing what will sound good on stuff where the bass frequencies are not as low or as full as those on my personal headphones?

I routinely put a high pass filter on individual channels set to a frequency whereby I can no longer hear a difference on or off.  In other words, the lower frequency limit of my monitoring system.   If I can't hear what's going on below a certain frequency, then I don't really want it left in my mix.

Stuckfast

I've just listened to both versions on good headphones and the bass drone gets lost on both, especially the first version. I think it's just too low in the mix and/or lacking upper harmonic content. Given that there's a lot of space in the track you could definitely fill out the 100-200Hz region a lot more. You could also make the sound less static -- add some modulation or an envelope to move the filter cutoff around.

PolarityMan

Reference the low end in isolation as part of your mixing workflow. I use metric A/B but you could also do this with any EQ that lets you solo a selected band.