Moddellers in 2023

drwiddly

I’ve met a few recalcitrant sound guys (and converted a couple to the joys of digital!) but I always have a backline, previously a power amp and cab and more recently a couple of Redsound cabs, so if they really can’t cope with direct out, they can mic the cab. We rarely, if ever, play gigs with supplied backline anyway.

willo

I always worried if that might happen with sound people but, in all honesty, how is 2x XLR remotely complex? I'm assuming the backline is mic'd through a mic/XLR cable anyway??

digitalscream

willo said:

I always worried if that might happen with sound people but, in all honesty, how is 2x XLR remotely complex? I'm assuming the backline is mic'd through a mic/XLR cable anyway??

You might be surprised how many sound guys find the act of moving a cable intolerable; it's even worse if it's stereo. Happened to me often enough that I went with a lightweight cab and pedalboard power amp in the end.

Sounds better like that anyway (the weakness of modellers is the cab emulation, not the amp/effects modelling), so it kinda worked out for the best.

Nerine

digitalscream said:

willo said:

I always worried if that might happen with sound people but, in all honesty, how is 2x XLR remotely complex? I'm assuming the backline is mic'd through a mic/XLR cable anyway??

Sounds better like that anyway (the weakness of modellers is the cab emulation, not the amp/effects modelling),

Cannot agree more. I honestly think the IR thing is what makes a lot of people give up or get frustrated with modellers. 

If I plumb my Fractal into the FX Return of my Friedman and ditch the cab block, I literally cannot tell I'm playing through a modeller. It may as well be a different amp through the same cab. The Fractal tech is soooooo good when emulating the circuitry of the amps and pedals. The Friedman Small Box model sounds and responds identically to the actual preamp in the amp in the testing I've done, for example. 

Shouldn't be a surprise, really. DAW plugins have been able to stand up favourably to the emulated hardware for years. This isn't really any different, unless I'm completely mistaken. A guitar amp is quite different to an LA-2A, obviously, but none of the basic technologies or topographies in it are wildly different, so should be just as "modellable" with the same accuracy. 

Lestratcaster

willo said:

I always worried if that might happen with sound people but, in all honesty, how is 2x XLR remotely complex? I'm assuming the backline is mic'd through a mic/XLR cable anyway??

I asked this in my own thread about using IEMs but seeing as the topic is running here, is there anything between the modeller/Profiler and the sound desk via the xlr? I.e a stage box or splitter thing on the stage? If the sound desk is on the other side of the room to the stage surely there's not 100ft xlr cables going across the room?

p90fool

I've also started playing in a blues duo recently and can get my Pod Go to sound ok for it but it's a bit of a programming chore to be honest.

With careful use of virtual mic placement, cab choice and the digital guitarist's best friend, a curly lead, I'm pretty much there, but last week I just plonked a valve combo down, whacked the volume and treble up so I had headroom for both from the guitar and it was an absolute breeze in comparison. 

Roland

Lestratcaster said:

willo said:

I always worried if that might happen with sound people but, in all honesty, how is 2x XLR remotely complex? I'm assuming the backline is mic'd through a mic/XLR cable anyway??

I asked this in my own thread about using IEMs but seeing as the topic is running here, is there anything between the modeller/Profiler and the sound desk via the xlr? I.e a stage box or splitter thing on the stage? If the sound desk is on the other side of the room to the stage surely there's not 100ft xlr cables going across the room?

Modeller to desk via XLR. If the desk is that far away then there’s usually a stage box to plug into. 

Lestratcaster

Roland said:

Lestratcaster said:

willo said:

I always worried if that might happen with sound people but, in all honesty, how is 2x XLR remotely complex? I'm assuming the backline is mic'd through a mic/XLR cable anyway??

I asked this in my own thread about using IEMs but seeing as the topic is running here, is there anything between the modeller/Profiler and the sound desk via the xlr? I.e a stage box or splitter thing on the stage? If the sound desk is on the other side of the room to the stage surely there's not 100ft xlr cables going across the room?

Modeller to desk via XLR. If the desk is that far away then there’s usually a stage box to plug into. 

Yeah I thought so, otherwise the people standing to watch are tripping over the cables lol. Looks like most of them are xlr female input though and I usually use a female to male xlr, but the venue would have one wouldn't they to mic up the cabs usually?

With it being an xlr connection I'm almost certainly going to have to take my main output volume down to at least -18db with the -12db function enable so its -30db, and hopefully not pissing off the sound guy!

Voxman

p90fool said:

I've also started playing in a blues duo recently and can get my Pod Go to sound ok for it but it's a bit of a programming chore to be honest.

With careful use of virtual mic placement, cab choice and the digital guitarist's best friend, a curly lead, I'm pretty much there, but last week I just plonked a valve combo down, whacked the volume and treble up so I had headroom for both from the guitar and it was an absolute breeze in comparison. 

For straight up blues a valve combo with maybe a blues driver or similar pedal is all you need. MFX are I think more for those that need a wider range of tones eg if you play in a covers band. 

Danny1969

Voxman said:

p90fool said:

I've also started playing in a blues duo recently and can get my Pod Go to sound ok for it but it's a bit of a programming chore to be honest.

With careful use of virtual mic placement, cab choice and the digital guitarist's best friend, a curly lead, I'm pretty much there, but last week I just plonked a valve combo down, whacked the volume and treble up so I had headroom for both from the guitar and it was an absolute breeze in comparison. 

For straight up blues a valve combo with maybe a blues driver or similar pedal is all you need. MFX are I think more for those that need a wider range of tones eg if you play in a covers band. 

The strange thing is though most people in covers bands only really use 2 or maybe 3 basic amp sounds and then the correct delay patches and whatever other effects. They don't tend to use loads of different amp sounds even though the modeller can provide them. 
I used 2 amps in my modeller  ... one clean and one dirty. That was it. Because FOH generally do a sweep, they get the EQ sweet for their FOH rig and they want to move on. So I'm like here's my clean sound, here's my dirty and heres the solo patch which has a bit of boost. Some patches had a bit of chorus and some a harmoniser patched in but there was no EQ surprises caused by switching amps. 

So now people are using a modeller with a PA speaker or into the power amp of another amp .. I don't get how this is any lighter or easier than just using an amp and a few pedals. 

Voxman

Danny1969 said:

Voxman said:

p90fool said:

I've also started playing in a blues duo recently and can get my Pod Go to sound ok for it but it's a bit of a programming chore to be honest.

With careful use of virtual mic placement, cab choice and the digital guitarist's best friend, a curly lead, I'm pretty much there, but last week I just plonked a valve combo down, whacked the volume and treble up so I had headroom for both from the guitar and it was an absolute breeze in comparison. 

For straight up blues a valve combo with maybe a blues driver or similar pedal is all you need. MFX are I think more for those that need a wider range of tones eg if you play in a covers band. 

The strange thing is though most people in covers bands only really use 2 or maybe 3 basic amp sounds and then the correct delay patches and whatever other effects. They don't tend to use loads of different amp sounds even though the modeller can provide them. 
I used 2 amps in my modeller  ... one clean and one dirty. That was it. Because FOH generally do a sweep, they get the EQ sweet for their FOH rig and they want to move on. So I'm like here's my clean sound, here's my dirty and heres the solo patch which has a bit of boost. Some patches had a bit of chorus and some a harmoniser patched in but there was no EQ surprises caused by switching amps. 

So now people are using a modeller with a PA speaker or into the power amp of another amp .. I don't get how this is any lighter or easier than just using an amp and a few pedals. 

I play in a classic rock and blues band and I probably use around 10 different tones. For example I have a specific patch for money for nothing, Sultans of swing, brick in the wall, Brighton Rock, and SCOM, so that's 5  just there.

I set my patches up in song order with song names so patch naming is essential, and being able to switch sounds with a single stomp is a key advantage when gigging, instead of having to tap dance multiple fx on a pedal board.  I gig with a Vox Tonelab LE or SE either straight through the FOH PA or through one or two Headrush FRFR108s that weigh only 19lbs each.  I can kick in a boost or wah via the control switch or expression pedal.  I also use a BBE Boosta Grand for clean volume boosts - dead easy to use, one footswitch and one level knob.

I still have 6 amps, 3 valve, 3 hybrids.  At my age the problem is weight and bulk, and I simply can't schlapp big heavy valve amps any more and then that includes a pedal board but that still requires tap dancing.  And because every amp is different, tone isn't consistent between them.  On occasion I will still use an amp and pedal board if it fits what I need, but only with my Laney Cub 12r or Marshall 8080 MkI Valvestate because they are the lightest amps I have.  

I can carry a guitar in one hand, FRFR108 in the other, and my TLLE in a gig bag over my shoulder in one journey.  I can't do that with an amp. Set up and packaway is fast too. 

Next Saturday I have a gig in Soho, which means tube and walking, and I have to use an unknown backline. So I'll take my Yamaha Pacifica 611VFM in a gig back and my Pod Go because it's light and small and with PSU and cables fits into a lap top bag.  

I'm fortunate in that I have a choice of rigs and guitars to give me options.  But for me, using mfx is a very practical and effective gigging solution. 

crunchman

The other problem with amps and pedalboards is that there is more to go wrong.  My pedalboard flaked out on me at the weekend.  I think it's probably a patch cable, but it could be the power supply, or one of the 9V cables from the power supply to a pedal.  I ended up just playing an acoustic for the whole thing instead.  For what we were playing that worked ok.

bloodandtears

After reading about how Phantom Power can damaged the XLR input of the Helix, I no longer use this jack for FOH PA feeds, too risky..

I use this XLR to feed my Laney LFR112, and send the jack to the desk (or DI if required)

NelsonP

bloodandtears said:

After reading about how Phantom Power can damaged the XLR input of the Helix, I no longer use this jack for FOH PA feeds, too risky..

I use this XLR to feed my Laney LFR112, and send the jack to the desk (or DI if required)

One of these will do the trick...
https://www.bax-shop.co.uk/microphone-components/triton-audio-phantom-blocker

sgosden

NelsonP said:

bloodandtears said:

After reading about how Phantom Power can damaged the XLR input of the Helix, I no longer use this jack for FOH PA feeds, too risky..

I use this XLR to feed my Laney LFR112, and send the jack to the desk (or DI if required)

One of these will do the trick...
https://www.bax-shop.co.uk/microphone-components/triton-audio-phantom-blocker

Exactly what I used when gigging. Had my own xlr cable coming out the back of the rack, then plugged this inbetween the "guitar mic" cable. 
Some FOH didn't even realise it wasnt their own mic on a cab they where hearing 

bloodandtears

NelsonP said:

bloodandtears said:

After reading about how Phantom Power can damaged the XLR input of the Helix, I no longer use this jack for FOH PA feeds, too risky..

I use this XLR to feed my Laney LFR112, and send the jack to the desk (or DI if required)

One of these will do the trick...
https://www.bax-shop.co.uk/microphone-components/triton-audio-phantom-blocker

Cheers but £40!??!!  not sure I need it in with my current solution and setup but I'll bear it in mind if I ever have to revert back for some reason..

Littlejonny

Stinkfoot said:

I've been a Helix user since they came out pretty much, and occasionally go back to valve amps when I've felt I've been missing something. But in my experience, using valve amps on stage always brings more hassles with getting the balance right and takes longer for the sound guy to get it right in the overall mix without certain areas getting blasted by the beam of the speaker.
Plus, as happened on a recent gig, the stage layout was making it so difficult to hear the amp from behind me even at decent volumes that I ended up only being able to really hear it through the monitor anyway.

I haven't given up on the valve amp thing (and am enjoying my fairly new Victory V40 head/cab) but I can see me going back to all digital again for the most part just for simplicity and having more control over the mix I get. I've found the Helix amp model and pedals that work for me consistently and have been told the tones sound really organic. 

As has been mentioned above, I also use a Headrush FR-108 as a wedge and just have that for my guitar signal only...alongside whatever mix I get from the sound guy, or just general on-stage ambience. It gives me total control over my levels and after the initial learning curve of hearing things in front rather than behind you, I'm really comfortable with how it all sounds.

I get this…having the mix consistent all over the stage, which you don’t get with an amp unless you keep the level low and use the monitors. 

The thing I don’t like about using a modeller this way though is that you get drowned out and you can’t just turn your amp up or move closer to the amp. There’s vocals and drums coming out of the monitor as well as your guitar. 

So you bring your own FRFR cab and you’re back to square one, it’s basically a thing pretending to be an amp. Giving a sound man an XLR is no more convenient for him than letting him stick an SM57 on the end of that XLR and pointing it at your speaker. 

As for different sounds for every song, you’re placing too many variables in front of the sound man. If I’m mixing I don’t want the guitar frequencies changing all the time. You want to keep it in one place so you can balance it properly. 

What band in the history of bands used a different rig for every song in a live setting? 

crunchman

Littlejonny said:

Stinkfoot said:

I've been a Helix user since they came out pretty much, and occasionally go back to valve amps when I've felt I've been missing something. But in my experience, using valve amps on stage always brings more hassles with getting the balance right and takes longer for the sound guy to get it right in the overall mix without certain areas getting blasted by the beam of the speaker.
Plus, as happened on a recent gig, the stage layout was making it so difficult to hear the amp from behind me even at decent volumes that I ended up only being able to really hear it through the monitor anyway.

I haven't given up on the valve amp thing (and am enjoying my fairly new Victory V40 head/cab) but I can see me going back to all digital again for the most part just for simplicity and having more control over the mix I get. I've found the Helix amp model and pedals that work for me consistently and have been told the tones sound really organic. 

As has been mentioned above, I also use a Headrush FR-108 as a wedge and just have that for my guitar signal only...alongside whatever mix I get from the sound guy, or just general on-stage ambience. It gives me total control over my levels and after the initial learning curve of hearing things in front rather than behind you, I'm really comfortable with how it all sounds.

I get this…having the mix consistent all over the stage, which you don’t get with an amp unless you keep the level low and use the monitors. 

The thing I don’t like about using a modeller this way though is that you get drowned out and you can’t just turn your amp up or move closer to the amp. There’s vocals and drums coming out of the monitor as well as your guitar. 

So you bring your own FRFR cab and you’re back to square one, it’s basically a thing pretending to be an amp. Giving a sound man an XLR is no more convenient for him than letting him stick an SM57 on the end of that XLR and pointing it at your speaker. 

As for different sounds for every song, you’re placing too many variables in front of the sound man. If I’m mixing I don’t want the guitar frequencies changing all the time. You want to keep it in one place so you can balance it properly. 

What band in the history of bands used a different rig for every song in a live setting? 

You don't need to worry about mic stands.  You also don't need to worry about the mic being 3cm off the best positioning, and sounding a bit crap.  You won't pick up any 50Hz mains hum which you get from a lot of amps.  That's three reasons it's more convenient for the sound man (or woman) than a mic.

There's also no risk of the SM57 being half-inched while your back is turned.

joeyowen

fretmeister said:

John Mayer did a tour with a Kemper. He sounded great.

That should be the end of any discussion, but it's the pub weekend warriors that will complain the most.

incorrect 

He had a kemper in his dressing room at times, but still used dumbles etc.. on stage 

he's used an axefx for a few one of shows 

stonevibe

This is my 'current' favourite mini modelling custom rig builder.

Pedalnetics