Anyone in a power trio?

Philtheguitar

Evening all - I'm 3 rehearsals in with my new 3-piece (power trio) band and it's going really well, but as those of you who've played in this format will know, it's VERY challenging!
I thought it might be useful to get some insight from those of you experienced with playing in a trio.

We're pulling from a bit of a power punk influence, but also selecting some of the 'standards' such as Mr Brightside (I know, very overplayed, but a great tune that always gets a good response form average punters).

I find it hard as a guitarist to know which 'layers' are most important - do I play the main rhythm part, or the little octave guide tones that add so much but are low in the mix...these kinds of decisions are so crucial. 

I don't really have a question, just thought I'd open the topic up for everyone to discuss their trials and tribulations, advice, song ideas etc etc, pertaining specifically to playing in a power trio (guitar, bass, drums).

mrkb

Is it possible for three people not to be a “Power trio”? If so that’s what I occasionally play in (but only jams at the moment).

playing guitar and singing has to be a compromise, are you singing as well? I find I need to align my guitar rhythm parts to the vocals, so I can play Stone Roses Waterfall ok as the vocals fit the riff, but not other more complex songs. This means I’m mainly playing chords while singing with fills at the end of the sentence. Solos are tricky as that removes the chord backing, so I’m working how to keep them sounding thicker (Hitting double stops) while playing key solo parts.

roberty

The main thing for me is looking for ways to create contrast and keep things interesting and surprising for the audience 

Arrangement-wise your patterns need to be super locked in between the three of you. Also your inversions need to be good, ie thinking of the bass and the guitar as extensions of each other. For example you might leave the root note out on the guitar in certain song sections to open up the sound and for contrast 

I feel like if you can get a variety of radically different sounds between you this keep things interesting (eg spacey, groovy, heavy), even within the same song. For example you might make the second verse different by changing to a percussive guitar part, or you might go for something really spacey in a breakdown. I use a switcher to quickly change patches

Vocal harmonies are a three piece band's secret weapon. Basically two more instruments. Nirvana's Nevermind can be considered a vocal harmony pop album 

Lastly, your guitar needs to fill a lot of space so the way you EQ is important

With a bigger group you'll want subtlety and detail, but for me a three piece is about making bold, obvious strokes

Bod

Are you also singing?  If so, then the key is to have a bassist that can step up to fill the space behind you, leaving you to simplify (if necessary) and multitask.

Add some dirt to the bass too - completely necessary in a punk trio IMO.

roberty

Bod said:

Add some dirt to the bass too - completely necessary in a punk trio IMO.

Yeah this is a great point

CaseOfAce

roberty said:

Bod said:

Add some dirt to the bass too - completely necessary in a punk trio IMO.

Yeah this is a great point

As long as the bassist goes along with that.

which in the real world - If you've got a lead bass player with toppy tone doing occassional slap  who's going to play how he wants (and as loud as he wants)... unfortunately I've found there's little you can do about that (short of quitting).

It's all on you as a guitarist to fill it out and hope for the best - which is an art in itself.

In an ideal world I'd have a bass player doing root / fifths, basic arpeggios with a plectrum thru an amp producing BASS (dear god... yes please) completely locked in with the drummer allowing me to ride along on the top. 

As regards arrangements - I've been listening to Billie Joe Armstrong's No Fun Mondays this week.
Although not strictly trio only... fun to hear his chords, octaves he's doing on there (plus the harmonies).
Manic Monday as a punk version .. works quite well !

bloodandtears

my band FALL3N HALO are a "power" trio...

my approach is to play the prominent parts that I perceive as key to the song.. whether that's actually the recorded guitar part or something else.

Dirty Laundry is a great example of this...  I amalgamate ideas from Nickelback's cover plus Steve Porcaro's synth on Don Henley's original.

Edge Of Seventeen is another, the guitar is massively prominent but trying to bring elements of the piano parts in helps it be a less monotonous experience.

Of course we also augment our sound on some tracks with click track led backing cos well some songs just wouldn't work as well.

roberty

You sound a bit traumatised @CaseOfAce lol, I know the typer of player you mean

fretmeister

I've played in power trios or singer + 3 musicians for many years.

TONE:

I suppose my main advice would be to build the live sound from the bottom up. Drums and bass first. When that is sounding solid without anything else then it will always sound solid no matter what the guitar is doing. Adjust the guitar tone to fit the rhythm section, not the other way round.

Do not go mad on the drive on the bass. While Darkglass type drives are very popular at the moment as they cut through twin guitars that is actually the last thing you need for a power trio. The bass sound needs to be harmonically rich and mid heavy. Not a lot of true low end.

The best of those types of sound are often quite farty in nature - sometimes really unpleasant when heard alone, but they sound gloriously fat in the mix. John Deacon / Jack Bruce that sort of thing. Tech21 Paradriver or Catalain Bread SFT are great for this. Or go for a Split Rig with mixed clean and fat dirt like Kings X would.

I have to say that a precision bass type sound with that mid push works a lot better than a J type. There is a reason that most of the great sounding power trios are using P basses or PJ at least.

ARRANGEMENTS

The most important part is the arrangement. You can make anything work with the right arrangement.

One thing that a power trio MUST do, is learn to love the space and differences in dynamics. Do not get obsessed with the sound being "thin" during a solo. It's not thin - it's just different. And those changes are a welcome relief from wall of sound bludgeoning that gets so tiring very fast.

There is no need for the bass to add extra effects while the guitar is soloing - in fact that can sound a bit weird as it changes the solid foundation you've built. 

The best thing the bass can do is be interesting. If the verses and chorus needs simple 8th or 16th root notes that's great. That always works. But behind a solo or other interlude the bass needs to move. Can be as simple as starting with roots, then adding octaves to match the kick and snare, and then adding in a walking bass part or counter point melody and getting up the neck a bit. If the guitar is up really high, then the bass has room to move up an octave too. And all that makes you sound very different to most other stuff out there at the moment.

Cream's live version of 'Crossroads' is a masterclass for this. It's just the 3 of them and when EC goes soloing Jack Bruce really does too... but it's still a bass part and it sounds massive!

But it still needs the guitar part to work with it. If the bass is playing at it's lower register and the guitar is widdling above the 15th fret then there is a gap in the middle. Double stops, changing octaves etc all work great for the guitar and the bass has the space to move up too.

Don't just think of the drums as a time keeper. As long as the kick and HH are solid then there's no reason why the drummer can't fill any space.

But as I said - LOVE the space!

VOCALS

The more of you that can sing, the better. A bit of well placed harmony goes a long way. Doesn't have to be limited to the choruses - stick it on appropriate verse lines too and it sounds ace.

STAGECRAFT

There's only 3 on stage and the singer will not be in the middle. Move around more when you are not singing!
But - don't be afraid of sticking the drums to the side if you want. But if you do that, make sure the bass is next to the drums. Never split them up. They are 2 parts of the main unit of any power trio.

Anyway - hope that helps a bit!

EricTheWeary

I haven't done the trio thing but I was going to say something about space although @fretmeister has covered that much better than I would have. Audiences are much more aware of dynamics than they are key changes or going from phaser to flanger. I've been watching some live stuff by The Police on YouTube recently and what is going on is really minimal at times but then huge when everything kicks in. The willingness to play nothing or just a simple palm muted part at times. 

fretmeister

It's definitely my favourite format.

The instruments all get to explore a bit due to the space.
It has far better dynamic and feel changes than bigger arrangements.

And above all.

the fee is only split 3 ways!  

roberty

fretmeister said:

And above all.

the fee is only split 3 ways!  

So much easier to organise as well

Philtheguitar

You guys are awesome! Thank you so much for the input.
I am singing BVs - the bassist is lead vocals, plus we're getting the drummer to sing BVs next rehearsal as well. 
Definitely agree about dynamics, but sometimes this can be taken too far and the music loses it's energy when the drums go too quiet.

fretmeister

Both Vinnie Paul and Dave Lombardo are excellent examples of drummers who drastically change the feel of a tune by the drums only, even when the guitar and bass parts are staying the same.

fretmeister

Philtheguitar said:

You guys are awesome! Thank you so much for the input.
I am singing BVs - the bassist is lead vocals, plus we're getting the drummer to sing BVs next rehearsal as well. 
Definitely agree about dynamics, but sometimes this can be taken too far and the music loses its energy when the drums go too quiet.

I don’t think you have to worry about that.

At no point in human history has there ever been a drummer who is too quiet.

Too late, too drunk, too thick to count beyond 4…. Definitely. But never too quiet!

 

fastonebaz

I prefer playing in one guitar bands much easier to manage the noise. 

Trude

I do lead vox and guitar in a 3-piece.  My secret weapon is the Boss SY-200 with its hold function.  You can hit a chord or a single note, hold the pedal and you get a great organ/synth pad/string backing that really fills things out.  Once you get the hang of it, it's a bit like a piano sustain pedal in terms of the muscle memory.

....and ditto to all of the above great points regarding arrangements etc.

Philtheguitar

Trude said:

I do lead vox and guitar in a 3-piece.  My secret weapon is the Boss SY-200 with its hold function.  You can hit a chord or a single note, hold the pedal and you get a great organ/synth pad/string backing that really fills things out.  Once you get the hang of it, it's a bit like a piano sustain pedal in terms of the muscle memory.

....and ditto to all of the above great points regarding arrangements etc.

That's a cool idea - might look into that. Thanks

rze99

Have done loads of power 3 piece work over the decades.

Something I like to do is split the guitar signal into two separate amps as a core tone,

One going into a thicker dirtier darker tone the other brighter and more cutting with some movement like a little chorus and trem.

I like to have guitar coming from both sides of the drummer so that the stage spread is covered.

This makes a big rich sound with a little movement variation and a great leap off platform to boost for solos or roll back for quiet and airy. The mix desk can then pan L and R or blend in as preferred.  

Philtheguitar

rze99 said:

Have done loads of power 3 piece work over the decades.

Something I like to do is split the guitar signal into two separate amps as a core tone,

One going into a thicker dirtier darker tone the other brighter and more cutting with some movement like a little chorus and trem.

I like to have guitar coming from both sides of the drummer so that the stage spread is covered.

This makes a big rich sound with a little movement variation and a great leap off platform to boost for solos or roll back for quiet and airy. The mix desk can then pan L and R or blend in as preferred.  

Thanks for your insight - I quite like that idea and will give it a try next rehearsal

rze99

Philtheguitar said:

rze99 said:

Have done loads of power 3 piece work over the decades.

Something I like to do is split the guitar signal into two separate amps as a core tone,

One going into a thicker dirtier darker tone the other brighter and more cutting with some movement like a little chorus and trem.

I like to have guitar coming from both sides of the drummer so that the stage spread is covered.

This makes a big rich sound with a little movement variation and a great leap off platform to boost for solos or roll back for quiet and airy. The mix desk can then pan L and R or blend in as preferred.  

Thanks for your insight - I quite like that idea and will give it a try next rehearsal

I should have mentioned above before you try it. There's something needed to make this work well signal wise, and that is the best quality signal splitter that has ground lift, otherwise you'll get ground hum using two amps.

You can avoid ground hum manually without fancy kit by actually removing ground wire on just one of the amp's power cables.  I did this for years live and studio without killing myself but.. well... I was poor and younger and invincible

But when I got my Radial splitter which is made for the job, it made life easier and safer an the sound quality is superb. You can use anything that has two outputs such as a chorus pedal to try it roughly, but a dedicated splitter is highly recommended.

Something else that is way more effective than I thought it would be, is a pedal that mimics doubletracking. There are a bunch, I use the TC Mimiq. Here's a summary of these pedals with demos:

https://www.guitarpedalx.com/news/gpx-blog/6-of-the-best-double-tracker-pedals-for-your-consideration

The Mimiq was recommended by a studio tech as being "the best" (but admittedly many years ago now) so I got one and... I love it. It's addictive and I've used it for recording and live  E.g, I did all the backing track recording and parts for this track link below. The guitars went into the Radial splitter and then Mimiq and then into two separate amp channels, one dirtier one cleaner, dirtier panned left, cleaner panned right Instant double-tracking  



Finally. when doing this splitting thing live in a band, it's hard to get the balance between the amps just right AND then when hitting a boost for solos it affects the tones and amps differently but, again, I like that. It takes more time to set up and balance but it sounds worth it.

An example of a simplified slit signal live setup that I use:

Guitar > compressor/boost whatever you want > Radial Splitter > TC Mimiq 

- signal 1 > Marshall JMP50 crunchy warm and dirty no effects - just thick and rich
- signal 2 > Chorus > Tremolo > Delay > Deluxe Reverb  - cleaner brighter chimey


Have fun