How does a Guitarist play Bass?

guitarjack66

Bork said:

theatreanchor said:

Many guitarists think they can play bass. They can’t. They play guitar lines on a bass. Bassists lock in with the drummer, understand groove, countermelody, and rhythm in a way that most guitarists don’t. Guitarists listen to other guitarists without really understanding what the low end is doing. It’s far more interesting and disciplined in many ways. 

Ronnie Wood on Maggie May being a classic example of that.  Although it did fit the song nicely but it's not exactly locking in with the drums and sitting in the pocket.

Does it really matter if it sold millions and made him a considerable sum?

Stuckfast

Jonathangus said:

The usual way to indicate a shuffle rhythm without making the notation overly complicated is with a little marking at the beginning of the score, like this:

This is one of those notation conventions that I hate. It's really easy to miss that little marking, and it only simplifies the score if there are no actual triplets anywhere. The bass line to Black Velvet has lots of triplet fills which just look messy and wrong alongside the apparently straight quaver pairs. I'd rather see the whole thing notated in 12/8 as a series of quaver/rest/quaver groups. 

fretmeister

Stuckfast said:

Jonathangus said:

The usual way to indicate a shuffle rhythm without making the notation overly complicated is with a little marking at the beginning of the score, like this:

This is one of those notation conventions that I hate. It's really easy to miss that little marking, and it only simplifies the score if there are no actual triplets anywhere. The bass line to Black Velvet has lots of triplet fills which just look messy and wrong alongside the apparently straight quaver pairs. I'd rather see the whole thing notated in 12/8 as a series of quaver/rest/quaver groups. 

You can't do it in 12/8.

Mainly because the drummer would start crying if they see any time sig that isn't 4/4 or (if you are lucky) 3/4.

Musicman20

I did it the other way round. I’m far better on bass. It’s not easy to play bass well…it’s easy to play the basics.

Blueingreen

One thing that doesn’t often get mentioned when this subject comes up is improvising. 

Usually when you’re improvising on guitar it’s not your job to lay down the pulse. You can have little micro pauses before you come up with the next phrase. On the bass you can't do that, you have to keep a constant flow (unless you’re actually soloing). As someone coming to bass after a few years on guitar I found that the toughest thing. At first, even on stuff that was clearly improvised on the record, I ended up having to memorise parts and play them note for note. 

There are formulaic ways you can fake it: simplified rules you can follow to play a functional walking line on a specific set of chords for example. But that doesn’t feel very much like being a ‘real’ bass player. Good ones can keep a seamless flow of varying lines going while keeping solid time.

I know this is not exactly beginner’s stuff but it’s an issue any guitar player who wants to make a permanent switch to bass is going to have to confront at some point if they want to become a good player. Unless you’re lucky enough to be exceptionally talented it takes a lot of practice, probably more so if you’ve been playing guitar for a decent length of time and are a bit older.

Despite a lot of hours put in I never got happy with that aspect of my bass playing - then I stopped playing for a few years and when started again I went back to guitar. I only play bass on home recordings now and I never need to improvise in real time. But I still think that’s the biggest challenge for switchers.

prowla

Funkfingers said:

stonevibe said:

I play bass like a guitarist and I use a pick. So, I'm like an anti-bassist or something like that. 

No. You are a future Rickenbacker 4003 user. 

Yep - I play a Rickenbacker (pick or fingers), but I'm not sure if I'm a bassist, bass player, or what.

prowla

fretmeister said:

Snags said:

CarbonCopy said:

Snags said:

To refresh my memory of the Black Velvet bass line I hit up Google.

And the very first video they linked ot is a demonstration of way people who don't know notation shouldn't be allowed to publish notation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_AlBSh9AWA - whether you're a guitarist or a bassist, if you only know tab, only post tab.

What's wrong with the notation?

It's only taking account of the notes, not the timing. So basically, it's tab-as-notation.

If you were to give that notation to someone who can read, but didn't know the song, they would play all of the notes as quavers (eighth notes) making the whole thing smooth and evenly paced. The whole point of notation is to convey timing info as well. It would be more accurate as a dotted quaver and semi-quaver for each pair. Looking at the rhythm and not worrying about the notes (or the key, as the original is down-tuned to Eb IIRC):

As per the video notation shown as tab:

Count    ||  1  +  2  +  3  +  4  +  |
E string ||  0--0--0--0--0--0--0--0--|

As per the song, shown as tab:

Count    ||  1 - + - 2 - + - 3 - + - 4 - + - |
E string ||  0-----0-0-----0-0-----0-0-----0-|

Not sure if that helps or hinders, though!

Aye.

My jazz band currently has a dep on the drums - a metal drummer.

Trying to get him to swing is a nightmare. Still he makes up for it with rim-shotting every snare beat....  

Get him to listen to Black Sabbath.

fretmeister

We’ve got our regular guy back next week. 

Dave_Mc

Musicman20 said:

I did it the other way round. I’m far better on bass. It’s not easy to play bass well…it’s easy to play the basics.

The bassics?

(Sorry  )

Dave_Mc

Blueingreen said:

One thing that doesn’t often get mentioned when this subject comes up is improvising. 

Usually when you’re improvising on guitar it’s not your job to lay down the pulse. You can have little micro pauses before you come up with the next phrase. On the bass you can't do that, you have to keep a constant flow (unless you’re actually soloing). As someone coming to bass after a few years on guitar I found that the toughest thing. At first, even on stuff that was clearly improvised on the record, I ended up having to memorise parts and play them note for note. 

There are formulaic ways you can fake it: simplified rules you can follow to play a functional walking line on a specific set of chords for example. But that doesn’t feel very much like being a ‘real’ bass player. Good ones can keep a seamless flow of varying lines going while keeping solid time.

I know this is not exactly beginner’s stuff but it’s an issue any guitar player who wants to make a permanent switch to bass is going to have to confront at some point if they want to become a good player. Unless you’re lucky enough to be exceptionally talented it takes a lot of practice, probably more so if you’ve been playing guitar for a decent length of time and are a bit older.

Despite a lot of hours put in I never got happy with that aspect of my bass playing - then I stopped playing for a few years and when started again I went back to guitar. I only play bass on home recordings now and I never need to improvise in real time. But I still think that’s the biggest challenge for switchers.

I just do a few passing tones between root notes... that probably comes under "formulaic ways you can fake it"!

Rocker

Jfingers

Thanks to @guitarjack66 ; for everything I've learned from this thread. I've just watched the video posted above by @Rocker.

I found the video fairly informative despite having played guitar for over 40 years, it also had the same fnar fnar quality that bake off and the British woodworker seemed to have gone with lately.

I may be a pup on here but I feel quite old. I record and write at home, not as much as I should. I bought a random choice of fretless acoustic bass from the bay a few years ago. It plays nicely however I've never plugged it into anything yet. I keep a selection of random instruments around for 'colour' on my recordings and learn a little before I use them.

I'm becoming much more interested in how bass playing works and this thread has helped me. I haven't used a pick for more than ten minutes in twenty plus years (and that was to play my other half some very strummy tunes from the 80's) so playing with my fingers doesn't bother me.

I think I need a cheap fretted bass with less stretching involved, can anyone recommend a short scale one I could look out for? A Squier for kids or similar perhaps?

fretmeister

There's some amazing quality shorties these days. Quite a few pros are using them too.

I'd suggest having a look on the Basschat dedicated shortie thread:

The Short Scale Bass Appreciation Society! - Bass Guitars - Basschat

There are loads these days. Budget models from Ibanez, Squier, Jackson, Epiphone etc etc.
Some with chunky P bass necks, some with slimmer J style, some inbetween.

I have 2 shorties - a "Jim Deacon" (£100 used) p bass. JD were a Scottish company about 30 years ago, and I have a Sandberg Lionel (£1400-£3000 depending on spec).

Then there are some excellent 32 inch medium scale instruments. I like those as well. I have a couple of Ibanez Mezzo medium scales. They are under £300 new, and can be found for £175 ish used. They are PJ types with a useful preamp and a lovely slim neck. Very comfy!

stratman3142

fretmeister said:

For openness I should admit that one of my old bands did Black Velvet in E to suit the singer.

It felt wrong and dirty. I even bought a D-Tuner so I could play it in Eb easily...

Are you one of those people I'm jealous of, that have perfect pitch? I have to confess that I'm completely oblivious to absolute pitch
 

fretmeister

No - but I recognise pitch changes easily.

I've never spent the time to link a sound with the pitch name, but I can usually say 'that's a semitone up / down' from normal.

guitarjack66

fretmeister said:

There's some amazing quality shorties these days. Quite a few pros are using them too.

I'd suggest having a look on the Basschat dedicated shortie thread:

The Short Scale Bass Appreciation Society! - Bass Guitars - Basschat

There are loads these days. Budget models from Ibanez, Squier, Jackson, Epiphone etc etc.
Some with chunky P bass necks, some with slimmer J style, some inbetween.

I have 2 shorties - a "Jim Deacon" (£100 used) p bass. JD were a Scottish company about 30 years ago, and I have a Sandberg Lionel (£1400-£3000 depending on spec).

Then there are some excellent 32 inch medium scale instruments. I like those as well. I have a couple of Ibanez Mezzo medium scales. They are under £300 new, and can be found for £175 ish used. They are PJ types with a useful preamp and a lovely slim neck. Very comfy!

McCartney has always played a short scale. Are there any particular shortfalls (no pun intended) to a 'shortie' versus your traditional longer scale bass?

Jfingers

@fretmeister thanks for the useful information. 

My problem isn't with the finger stretches involved, despite my hands being rather worn out due to the types of work I've done. It's much more to do with my left shoulder so the headstock being rather less far away would be ideal for me I think. Shortie it is then. Off to gas...

stickyfiddle

Nothing wrong with a short scale if it’s that or nothing! It won’t sound identical but that doesn’t mean bad. 

I’d go Mustang, FWIW

fretmeister

Mustangs are often bad for neck dive. Not great with shoulder issues! 

fretmeister

guitarjack66 said:

fretmeister said:

There's some amazing quality shorties these days. Quite a few pros are using them too.

I'd suggest having a look on the Basschat dedicated shortie thread:

The Short Scale Bass Appreciation Society! - Bass Guitars - Basschat

There are loads these days. Budget models from Ibanez, Squier, Jackson, Epiphone etc etc.
Some with chunky P bass necks, some with slimmer J style, some inbetween.

I have 2 shorties - a "Jim Deacon" (£100 used) p bass. JD were a Scottish company about 30 years ago, and I have a Sandberg Lionel (£1400-£3000 depending on spec).

Then there are some excellent 32 inch medium scale instruments. I like those as well. I have a couple of Ibanez Mezzo medium scales. They are under £300 new, and can be found for £175 ish used. They are PJ types with a useful preamp and a lovely slim neck. Very comfy!

McCartney has always played a short scale. Are there any particular shortfalls (no pun intended) to a 'shortie' versus your traditional longer scale bass?

Not really. The sound a little different but not better or worse.

Shortscales used to be just hollowbodies or beginner basses but the world has moved on.

Loads of great players have used them as their main instrument

Tina Weymouth
Jack Bruce
Bill Wyman
Allen Woody
Trevor Bolder (Bowie)
Jack Casady 
Stanley Clark!!

Everybody who ever played an EB-0 or EB-3.

The biggest change is the advancement in string design. Short scales do not have to mean crap sounding low notes anymore. String choice is much better too now.

There's not many shortie 5 strings with a low B around but it's entirely possible to do it very well. Despite the hype from Dingwall and others, construction quality is far more important than scale length.

For 4 strings it's difficult to find a bad one now. Even my £100 one was built well enough to be worthy of some upgrades. I swapped the shite tuners for some Hipshot Ultralites, and because I had it anyway, stuck an Aguilar pickup in it. Added some chunky La Bella flats and it's instant Motown. Jamerson / Dunn etc.

My Sandberg currently has artificially aged D'addario steel rounds on it as I needed a bit more bite. I usually have Dunlop flats on that one though.

The Sandberg Lionel has been so successful they now offer a jazz version, and they will build their Central (Stingray) as a shortie as well as a special order.