Superlocrian on the dominant!

Cranky

So, back to the superlocrian, I’m curious to know what folks think about this.

I personally don’t like the way it sounds when I play the A# pentatonic over the G7.  But I do like playing the full G superlocrian scale over G7 (not literally the whole scale, but the phrasings that the whole scale allows.) The two notes missing from the A# pentatonic relative to G superlocrian is a B and G, which are also chord tones of G7.  So I think I might just be too rigid or traditional in that I seem to need to hear at least some chord tones amidst the tension.  Idk if it’s significant that the two chord tones are specifically the root and third of the G7.

viz

Yep it’s definitely spiky. Superlocrian already doesn’t include the 5, and like you say, with A# penta you are also missing the 1 and the 3, so you’re left with the 7 and some jazz notes.

It works better if a bassist is providing a strong G and a bit of B too.

I don’t use it personally, I do what you do, which is to play good tunes using the notes; it’s really just a nice trick to get some jazz flavour while confining yourself to the penta shape. 

Brad

@Cranky that’s totally understandable and its just another option/way in for the Super Locrian  sound that’s all. If the full Super Locrian works for you, can’t ask for anymore than that

But out of interest, what is the context of the G7 with your A#/Bb Min Pentatonic? What comes before it and what comes after? If you’re struggling the make the Pentatonic up a min 3rd work as an Altered sound, I suspect it’s an issue of phrasing, placement and direction. 

Granted, superimposing Pentatonics isn’t as straight forward as it’s made out/assumed to be. We do have to handle it differently to how we’ve been used to using the Pentatonic in a conventional sense (blues/rock/metal etc) and that does take a bit of time/work. 

You don’t like the way it sounds for you when you play it (which is cool of course), but how does it sound when you hear it in the two vids I posted? Close your eyes and listen, forget anything about pentatonics up a min 3rd. Do you still miss the root and 3rd? If I took the chords away, would you still hear the Super Locrian sounds in those places and would it still sound it it makes sense?

Don’t worry, there’s no right or wrong answer here! I’m just trying to gauge where you’re at with the overall thing. 

@viz no feelings of being confined here

viz

Deffo doesn’t sound confined musically, you play exceptionally well, but I just mean restricting yourself to five notes. 

ArchtopDave

Brad said:

ArchtopDave said:

Is Barry Harris the guy who conceptualised his harmonic thinking as being in the form of a Cubic Structure? Or was that someone else? Because I remember reading an extensive article ( f it was by Him) some years ago. At the the end of this article, he actually wondered whether his thinking was an interesting process, but which might not actually be of practical benefit in terms of actual music making.

I don't know, although he was an incredibly deep thinker so very possibly? The only thing that would make me question otherwise, is the fact that he seemed all about making music straight away. Like the idea of entertaining something that wasn't practical would even enter his thinking? But then it would make sense if he thought that, then jettisoned it for that reason. Dunno… haha

@Brad   Just to clarify my last sentence, which I quote above, in conjunction with your last sentence immediately above. 

He had clearly spent a long time developing the theoretical concept, and even more added time managing to represent this complex thinking in the form of an elegant cube. 

He then had the honestly to briefly explain that he found that there was no noticeable alteration in his own playing after he had completed the development of his theory.
 Interestingly, he decided to leave this theoretical work available for anyone to read in case someone in the future could find advancement in their playing once they had studied his Theory.

Brad

ArchtopDave said:

Brad said:

ArchtopDave said:

Is Barry Harris the guy who conceptualised his harmonic thinking as being in the form of a Cubic Structure? Or was that someone else? Because I remember reading an extensive article ( f it was by Him) some years ago. At the the end of this article, he actually wondered whether his thinking was an interesting process, but which might not actually be of practical benefit in terms of actual music making.

I don't know, although he was an incredibly deep thinker so very possibly? The only thing that would make me question otherwise, is the fact that he seemed all about making music straight away. Like the idea of entertaining something that wasn't practical would even enter his thinking? But then it would make sense if he thought that, then jettisoned it for that reason. Dunno… haha

@Brad   Just to clarify my last sentence, which I quote above, in conjunction with your last sentence immediately above. 

He had clearly spent a long time developing the theoretical concept, and even more added time managing to represent this complex thinking in the form of an elegant cube. 

He then had the honestly to briefly explain that he found that there was no noticeable alteration in his own playing after he had completed the development of his theory.
 Interestingly, he decided to leave this theoretical work available for anyone to read in case someone in the future could find advancement in their playing once they had studied his Theory.

No clarification needed, I fully understood your point. You posed the question if it was Barry Harris that had written the article, or if it was someone else because you'd read said article years ago and it would seem you can't remember.

I'm not stating one or the other. I was merely sayig that, in my limited understand of Barry Harris having watched some of his classes/interviews and videos from those that studied under him, whilst starting to get his approach under my fingers, it could very well be him that wrote the article that you read. Or on the other hand I could very well imagine it not have been him.

Unless you know either way, or can link the article (if you find it please do, I'd love to read it!) then it's just conjecture surely?    

Cranky

Brad said:

@Cranky that’s totally understandable and its just another option/way in for the Super Locrian  sound that’s all. If the full Super Locrian works for you, can’t ask for anymore than that

But out of interest, what is the context of the G7 with your A#/Bb Min Pentatonic? What comes before it and what comes after? If you’re struggling the make the Pentatonic up a min 3rd work as an Altered sound, I suspect it’s an issue of phrasing, placement and direction. 

Granted, superimposing Pentatonics isn’t as straight forward as it’s made out/assumed to be. We do have to handle it differently to how we’ve been used to using the Pentatonic in a conventional sense (blues/rock/metal etc) and that does take a bit of time/work. 

You don’t like the way it sounds for you when you play it (which is cool of course), but how does it sound when you hear it in the two vids I posted? Close your eyes and listen, forget anything about pentatonics up a min 3rd. Do you still miss the root and 3rd? If I took the chords away, would you still hear the Super Locrian sounds in those places and would it still sound it it makes sense?

Don’t worry, there’s no right or wrong answer here! I’m just trying to gauge where you’re at with the overall thing. 

@viz no feelings of being confined here

Yeah my problem is phrasing.  I am still in the habit, when I hear “pentatonic”, of thinking I can just play that box of hammer-ons, pull-offs and just go up and down that shape willy nilly.  But also, when I do try to focus on a specific phrase, I feel like I’m skipping steps/notes.  That might be phrasing, it might be because I’ve spent the past year or so working on 3 notes per string.

The context of my playing is that I just looped a 2-5-1 at a slower rate.  No drums, no bass.  Just me playing a Dm7-G7-Cmaj7.  So maybe it needs more instrumental support, too.

One thing I noticed is that, when I stopped looping and started noodling with the intention of resolving to each chord, it sounded better.  So I would noodle over Bm pentatonic (over a hypothetical but non-existing Dm7 chord) to resolve to G7, then A# pentatonic to resolve to the Cmaj7, and Am pentatonic into the Dm7.  It sounded better to me this way than playing over my looped chord progression.  So there’s something off with the way I’m phrasing that isn’t jibing with the chord being played.

Brad

Cranky said:

 Yeah my problem is phrasing.  I am still in the habit, when I hear “pentatonic”, of thinking I can just play that box of hammer-ons, pull-offs and just go up and down that shape willy nilly.  But also, when I do try to focus on a specific phrase, I feel like I’m skipping steps/notes.  That might be phrasing, it might be because I’ve spent the past year or so working on 3 notes per string.

Yep, that was the issue for me initially as well. You do have to handle it a bit differently to how you're used to, you need more intention in the approach. 

Cranky said:

The context of my playing is that I just looped a 2-5-1 at a slower rate.  No drums, no bass.  Just me playing a Dm7-G7-Cmaj7.  So maybe it needs more instrumental support, too.

Ok, I wouldn't worry too much about having more instrumental support, we want to get to the point where we are able to hear the changes unaccompanied...

Cranky said:

One thing I noticed is that, when I stopped looping and started noodling with the intention of resolving to each chord, it sounded better.  So I would noodle over Bm pentatonic (over a hypothetical but non-existing Dm7 chord) to resolve to G7, then A# pentatonic to resolve to the Cmaj7, and Am pentatonic into the Dm7.  It sounded better to me this way than playing over my looped chord progression.  So there’s something off with the way I’m phrasing that isn’t jibing with the chord being played.

It's all about intention and would it be fair to say that taking away the safety net of the chords, forces you think more about what you're doing?

I just want to question your use of Bm Pentatonic over Dm7... you'll have an F# in the scale which will clash against the b3 (F) of the Dm7. That could definitely be a contributing factor to things not working for you. 

So if you're working with a ii V I, perhaps try these:

Dm7 - D Minor Pentatonic

G7 - Bb Minor Pentatonic

CMaj7 - A Minor (C Maj) Pentatonic 

Play 8 notes of Dm Pentatonic then go to the next nearest note of Bbm Pentatonic for 8 notes and then the next nearest note of C Maj Pentatonic for 16 notes (if you’re doing 2 bars of course). This is a tough exercise, but this will get the sounds in your ears and connections in your fingers. Then do some improvising and see how it feels. A very quick (or should I say shit) example below…

https://imgur.com/a/DX9uG37

Cranky

^^ I’ll try anything.

I was trying Bm pentatonic based on recommendations on page 1.  But I probably misapplied the info.  I’m not thinking originally with any of these cheats.

viz

Cranky said:

One thing I noticed is that, when I stopped looping and started noodling with the intention of resolving to each chord, it sounded better.  So I would noodle over Bm pentatonic (over a hypothetical but non-existing Dm7 chord) to resolve to G7, then A# pentatonic to resolve to the Cmaj7, and Am pentatonic into the Dm7.  It sounded better to me this way than playing over my looped chord progression.  So there’s something off with the way I’m phrasing that isn’t jibing with the chord being played.

Heya - are you doing those pentas in the right order btw? See below (with correction to my Dorian misnomer and renamed A#m to Bbm coz it’s righter):

viz said:

^ by the way, you can do a nice little minor pentatonic thing on a 251. Say you’re in C major, so your 2 is Dm and your 5 is G7.  

- Over the Dm you play Am penta (Dm9 feel)
- Over the G7 you play Bbm penta (G superlocrian)
- Over the C you play Bm penta (C Lydian feel)

So you just slide up from fret 5 - 6 - 7 on your minor pentatonic shapes.

stratman3142

As a slight aside, I've recently discovered and subscribed to Jack Ruch's Youtube channel. Love his melodic playing with great feel and phrasing.

Highly recommended. A goldmine of practical jazz blues ideas.

Here's one on the altered scale.

Brad

stratman3142 said:

As a slight aside, I've recently discovered and subscribed to Jack Ruch's Youtube channel. Love his melodic playing with great feel and phrasing.

Highly recommended. A goldmine of practical jazz blues ideas.

Here's one on the altered scale.

Yeah he’s a really tasty player!

Neilybob

Brad said:

stratman3142 said:

As a slight aside, I've recently discovered and subscribed to Jack Ruch's Youtube channel. Love his melodic playing with great feel and phrasing.

Highly recommended. A goldmine of practical jazz blues ideas.

Here's one on the altered scale.

Yeah he’s a really tasty player!

I find his voice calming to listen to he just has that tone. 

Also a great player. 

Cranky

viz said:

Cranky said:

One thing I noticed is that, when I stopped looping and started noodling with the intention of resolving to each chord, it sounded better.  So I would noodle over Bm pentatonic (over a hypothetical but non-existing Dm7 chord) to resolve to G7, then A# pentatonic to resolve to the Cmaj7, and Am pentatonic into the Dm7.  It sounded better to me this way than playing over my looped chord progression.  So there’s something off with the way I’m phrasing that isn’t jibing with the chord being played.

Heya - are you doing those pentas in the right order btw? See below (with correction to my Dorian misnomer and renamed A#m to Bbm coz it’s righter):

viz said:

^ by the way, you can do a nice little minor pentatonic thing on a 251. Say you’re in C major, so your 2 is Dm and your 5 is G7.  

- Over the Dm you play Am penta (Dm9 feel)
- Over the G7 you play Bbm penta (G superlocrian)
- Over the C you play Bm penta (C Lydian feel)

So you just slide up from fret 5 - 6 - 7 on your minor pentatonic shapes.

Yeah that’s how I was doing it.  I must’ve said it wrong.