Monitoring for backing vocals

Jonathangus

After our shenanigans with vocalists, we've been lucky enough to find a tremendous female singer.  As a result, the rest of us are going to be attempting to chip in with some BVs, which means that we need some way to hear ourselves.

Currently, we have one of these...

...together with a couple of passive 12" Peavey tops, and a couple of active wedge monitors.  We're using the PA for vocals (and occasionally kick drum) only.  The amp has a single monitor out, and we can daisy-chain the wedges together, so that the singer and drummer can hear the vocals.  But I'm thinking we're going to need something a bit more sophisticated from a BV perspective.

We're now a five-piece, with a single lead singer, and potentially three of us doing BVs.  So I think we'll want five separate monitor mixes (possibly get away with four if the drummer is OK with lead vox only).

My initial thought was to get some Behringer 105Ds or similar which we can mount on our mic stands - the idea being that we could plug the mic into the 105D, then out to FOH.  But if I'm understanding the 105D instructions correctly, the 'Thru' output on the back is affected by the volume of the monitor - so if we want to turn ourselves up or down, it will affect the FOH mix.  Unless i'm missing a better way to hook them up...

The alternative is to start again from scratch.  While I think I'd prefer the simplicity of an analogue desk with knobs to twiddle, most of them seem to have only a couple of aux outs, so that then leads to a digital desk, which are obviously pricey, and more complex to use.  But they might be the only way to get enough aux outs.

And then there's the question of the monitors themselves.  Again, the 105Ds would be an option - just ignore the mixer bit and treat them as powered speakers.  The bassist has suggested in-ears, which might be a possibility - but (decent) wireless ones are expensive, and wired ones would defeat the object of the wireless guitar systems that two of us already use.

Bearing in mind that we're just an amateur pub band, maybe gigging once a month or so - what's the answer?

Musicwolf

Jonathangus said:

 But if I'm understanding the 105D instructions correctly, the 'Thru' output on the back is affected by the volume of the monitor - so if we want to turn ourselves up or down, it will affect the FOH mix.  Unless i'm missing a better way to hook them up...

I don't think that's the case.  The 'Thru' is quite literally a 'through' (a duplicate of the input).  The only thing that you can do is switch between mic and line level via a switch.

Jonathangus

@Musicwolf this is what it says:



Where it says 'final mix', I infer that adjusting the volume of the monitor will change what's going to FOH.

Roland

Can you afford a Behringer XR18? It has 6 mono Aux channels which can be used for monitor mixes.

The next question is how you’re going to get the monitor signals to your ears. Once you’ve got individual mixes then it’s either IEMs or buying powered monitors. Either way it’s more money. From personal experience I’d go for IEMs. It’s a big step, but the costs and benefits are commensurate.

Musicwolf

Jonathangus said:

@Musicwolf this is what it says:



Where it says 'final mix', I infer that adjusting the volume of the monitor will change what's going to FOH.

The quick start guide isn't well written.  Certainly on the 205, which I have, the Thru is taken from before the EQ / Master volume (I expect that the 105 is the same).  If you feed the monitor with multiple sources then yes, these will be mixed together and sent to the Thru but, if you are just using the monitor for vocals, then adjusting the master vol or EQ mid gig won't alter the signal going to FoH.

Musicwolf

Roland said:

Can you afford a Behringer XR18? It has 6 mono Aux channels which can be used for monitor mixes.

The next question is how you’re going to get the monitor signals to your ears. Once you’ve got individual mixes then it’s either IEMs or buying powered monitors. Either way it’s more money. From personal experience I’d go for IEMs. It’s a big step, but the costs and benefits are commensurate.

As well as the 6 mono aux outs (pairs of mono outs can be linked as stereo pairs) you have the option to add P-16M personal monitor mixers to give you unlimited independant stereo mixes, albeit at additional cost.  I use a P-16M to drive my, wired, in-ears and it it is something of a game changer - but not cheap.

Stratavarious

I’d start simple.

If the band micing setup is simple with mainly lead vocals through the mains, I’d give the singer a copy of the main out as their monitor feed as they will likely be loudest anyway… they can then use a wired IEM (or wedge) from one of the mains outs on the front. 

Then I’d share the actual single monitor out with its level control for each input for a BVs mix you share… possibly by chaining a couple of cheaper active wedge monitors together.   You can then feature the BVs louder on stage but the mains mix remains the same.

The small stand mounted in-line monitors are OK but I find them quite boxy sounding and weak with a loud drummer in a small space.

There is a reason we shifted to digital mixers and IEMs in my various outfits though.. 6 or 8 Aux outs. 

ESBlonde

Well other than trying to get a gallon from a pint pot. I’d give one active wedge to the lead singer, mic in there then chain into the PA amp, that way she has a dedicated monitor with “more me”. Then all other BVs direct into the mixer amp and use the single monitor send to the other wedge(s).
learn where to position the wedges in relation to the mics for best feedback rejection and make everybody kiss the grill whenever uttering vocal parts. If you can have all the backing vocals on the same make/model of quality mic since you only have the one eq option.
Good luck.

Jonathangus

Roland said:

Can you afford a Behringer XR18? It has 6 mono Aux channels which can be used for monitor mixes.

That's the sort of thing I've been considering; I know there are a few similar things in that ballpark.

Musicwolf said:

The quick start guide isn't well written.  Certainly on the 205, which I have, the Thru is taken from before the EQ / Master volume (I expect that the 105 is the same).  If you feed the monitor with multiple sources then yes, these will be mixed together and sent to the Thru but, if you are just using the monitor for vocals, then adjusting the master vol or EQ mid gig won't alter the signal going to FoH.

Ah, useful to know, thanks.

@stratavarious ;@ESBlonde those both sound promising, and are tricks I had missed!  That might be a good starting point - a couple of small monitors, which would still be useful if we decided to splash the cash later and go for something more sophisticated.

midiman1962

Coming at this from a slightly different angle than purely “technical “ please realise a lot of the sound of good bv’s will be down to arranging who is singing what and what actual harmonies are being “hit” by the backing vocals.I’ve been in bands where all the players have been capable of lead vocals except the drummer and only one monitor feed was required as we used to blend our own voices together. Just a suggestion- 3 or 4 blokes just doing their own thing behind a decent singer may not have the desired result.

Jonathangus

Thinking about IEMs - I'm guessing they're going to block everything else too.  So it would mean feeding everything into the PA so we can hear guitars etc. as well, no?

Stratavarious

Jonathangus said:

Thinking about IEMs - I'm guessing they're going to block everything else too.  So it would mean feeding everything into the PA so we can hear guitars etc. as well, no?

Depending on venue size you get a lot of ambient guitar amp spill into the vocal mics which mostly compensates.  

We often play with one IEM in and the other out to hear the room if we don’t have a comprehensive mix in ear though.  They can be quite isolating from the audience.

We also have a dedicated ambient monitor mic (PZM) which gets the general back line and drums sound on a channel.  The bass also has a DI out from the amp as the drummer often wants a really clear bass sound sent to him to lock in with. 

Plenty of partial solutions work for typical small pub venues,

I’d not consider IEMs for more than lead singer and drummer unless upgrading the mixer to one with a bunch of Auxes.

Roland

Fitted IEMs isolate you from other sounds, which is a good thing with loud stages, especially drummers. Ordinary earbuds won’t.