Why Are Some Acoustic Guitars so Expensive?

BillDL

munckee said:

@billdl I think the octavia was effectively a jetta whereas the superb was the equivalent of a passat, everything else you said makes sense of course.

You are absolutely correct.  I should have used something other than cars for my analogy given that I don't know very much about them 

SlopeSoarer

A mate of mine (God rest his soul ) used to work for Rothwell Audio in Bolton making guitar pedals. They tried to sell them cheap but they didn't didn't sell. They worked out that because they were cheap people didn't trust them. They remarketed them at double the price and couldn't keep up with demand!

I think we are very lucky in that if you have a load of wonga you can buy some very nice stuff but also if you aren't loaded (or just set your own limits)... you can still buy some very nice stuff (and everywhere in between). The quality will be different but perhaps not as much as one would expect.

guitarjack66

BillDL said:

munckee said:

@billdl I think the octavia was effectively a jetta whereas the superb was the equivalent of a passat, everything else you said makes sense of course.

You are absolutely correct.  I should have used something other than cars for my analogy given that I don't know very much about them 

Just like a French car engineer then.

bertie

guitarjack66 said:

  I'm just looking to be educated 

so,  ( car derailment aside) have you been ? 

Kilgore

Tannin said:

One reason put forward with almost religious mania by Americans is worth mentioning just because it is so completely wrong. This is that "American labor is so much more expensive than foreign labor". And American workers are indeed paid more than workers in (say) China or Nigeria.

But that isn't the actual question, which is why are American guitars so much more expensive than guitars made in every other First World nation, even though American wages are no higher, and very often lower than wages in Germany, Japan, Australia, the UK, Canada, and other places? Hell, the minimum wage in Korea is higher than the minimum wage in most US states. And the US prides itself (mostly incorrectly) as having lower taxes than anywhere "foreign". 

So why are American guitars so expensive? It's not wages. It's not taxes. It's not expenses (running a business in Germany or Australia or the UK costs big money too). And it's certainly not quality - at any given price point, guitars made in the UK, Japan, Australia, Germany, and several other places are of at least equal and usually even higher quality. 

Is it massive profit margins? Maybe, I don't have the numbers on that. Or is it simply inefficient, bloated production techniques long past due for reassessment? Having seen American cars, that's where I'd put my money. But it's only a guess, of course. I don't know the real reason.

Even if US hourly wages aren't significantly more, how much does US employee health insurance increase costs for US business?

topdog91

Edit: just saw this was in the Acoustic section. What a fail!

Demand for luxury goods goes up if the price is high enough. A little bling doesn't cost the manufacturer much, but we are not rational buyers. Same whether it's guitars or handbags. I'm not talking about real hand-made labour of a small luthier (and it's debatable whether that matters over CNC).

I'm talking about the big manufacturers successfully pretending that the magic labour and materials in the shiny limited piece of wood and metal make the instrument better, and of course sound better (didn't you know that "rare" "tone"woods happen to sound better? What a coincidence!). I love PRSs (I only buy SEs due to value) but he is one of the most insufferable (and smartest).

It's hard to fight it, but I regularly gig mid to budget tier axes (see my sig). My more expensive stuff (MC1, Kotzen, T-60) isn't that exotic in the grand scheme of things but I have it because I love it and at least it's a bit different. I'd love a Parker Fly and some (more) weird 70s s**t. But it doesn't get near a stage because for sound and playability live, there's no need and it's a liability. I'm currently gigging a Predator with Wilde pickups and a Classic Vibe Tele.

I even get compliments on my sound (I like it too, amps and pedals are so important as well, I feel that because the guitar is more out front people attach undue weight to it vs the rest of the rig), and I enjoy the experience. I've never been in the middle of Long Train Runnin in front of a dancing crowd, rest of the band solid by my side, having a great time and thought "I wish I was playing this on a really expensive guitar with exquisite something or other". We are pummeled with this (mis) information that the small details matter more than they really do.

All my guitars are well set up with good fretwork, good pickups, satin-ish neck, job done. For me personally the tipping point is probably about a grand second-hand and even in the 500-1000 range there are guitars that are good enough for anyone... Once things go above that, one is paying for "mojo". I mean, the Tele and Strat were specifically designed to be cheap to mass-produce!

Personally I see much more utility in having a few lower-priced axes that offer different sensibilities via pickups and can be kept in different tuning, over a ridiculously expensive version of a cheaper design that costs several times as much because of aspects that are mostly form over function. And yes, I like nice things. I just don't like to be taken the p**s out of.

I should say that I'm less ranty in person (maybe) and if people enjoy whatever, more power to them. The above is just an opinion.

Tannin

Kilgore said:

Tannin said:

One reason put forward with almost religious mania by Americans is worth mentioning just because it is so completely wrong. This is that "American labor is so much more expensive than foreign labor". And American workers are indeed paid more than workers in (say) China or Nigeria.

But that isn't the actual question, which is why are American guitars so much more expensive than guitars made in every other First World nation, even though American wages are no higher, and very often lower than wages in Germany, Japan, Australia, the UK, Canada, and other places? Hell, the minimum wage in Korea is higher than the minimum wage in most US states. And the US prides itself (mostly incorrectly) as having lower taxes than anywhere "foreign". 

So why are American guitars so expensive? It's not wages. It's not taxes. It's not expenses (running a business in Germany or Australia or the UK costs big money too). And it's certainly not quality - at any given price point, guitars made in the UK, Japan, Australia, Germany, and several other places are of at least equal and usually even higher quality. 

Is it massive profit margins? Maybe, I don't have the numbers on that. Or is it simply inefficient, bloated production techniques long past due for reassessment? Having seen American cars, that's where I'd put my money. But it's only a guess, of course. I don't know the real reason.

Even if US hourly wages aren't significantly more, how much does US employee health insurance increase costs for US business?

.How much does German unemployment insurance increase costs for German businesses?

How much does the Australian superannuation levy increase costs for Australian businesses? (Actually, I can answer that one off the top of my head. It's 12%. Plus another 10% in GST. Not to mention payroll tax.

How much does British Value Added Tax increase costs for British businesses? (Ans: 20%.)

How much do employer taxes increase costs for Japanese businesses? (Ans: 12%. Plus 10% consumption tax.)

And so on.

In any case, US hourly wages aren't "significantly more", they are significantly less than in most of the competing countries.

The "it costs more to make guitars (or anything else) in the USA because wages" bullshit is just that: pure 24 carat bullshit. It's time they were called out on it.

Tannin

Not a problem @topdog91. A god post nevertheless.

BillDL

topdog91 said:

Edit: just saw this was in the Acoustic section. What a fail!

Damn.  Aaaaarggh! I hadn't noticed either.  @guitarjack66 I don't suppose you could change the thread title to "Why Are Some Acoustic Guitars So Expensive".

thomasross20

Acoustic section is the best section!

guitarjack66

BillDL said:

topdog91 said:

Edit: just saw this was in the Acoustic section. What a fail!

Damn.  Aaaaarggh! I hadn't noticed either.  @guitarjack66 I don't suppose you could change the thread title to "Why Are Some Acoustic Guitars So Expensive".

Done as you asked @BillDL. I wasnt aware I could do that until now! Rookie mistake.

BillDL

Yes, even though the thread title is what forms the URL to the thread, even if you change it (for example adding **SOLD** to the title) it is still indexed and old links, bookmarks, Google results, and typed URLs will still find the page.  It's very clever in that respect, and clearly cleverer than me in not noticing your question was about acoustics.

bertie

nurse,  NURSE,  they're out of bed again.................................time for their meds too

slacker

I own three acoustics, an ovation custom Ballater, a gs mini and a martin om28.the Martin looks sounds plays and is generally better. However it cost way more. 

Is it worth it? To me, yes. 

Jez6345789

It comes back as mentioned to modern economics as few things are sold based on the cost of material and labour plus profit.

The good news is we have a shed load of choice these days and there are some awesome value options as well as the opportunity to indulge whatever your heart wishes. 

guitarjack66

To be honest when it comes to electrics I really am baffled at their cost. I suspect its a lot to do with advertising costs coupled with the hardware installed. I refuse to believe the wood makes a massive difference.

guitarjack66

bertie said:

guitarjack66 said:

  I'm just looking to be educated 

so,  ( car derailment aside) have you been ? 

No,but I've stimulated some debate at least!

Dave_Mc

BillDL said:

munckee said:

@billdl I think the octavia was effectively a jetta whereas the superb was the equivalent of a passat, everything else you said makes sense of course.

You are absolutely correct.  I should have used something other than cars for my analogy given that I don't know very much about them 

LOL I always seem to end up making car analogies too and I don't know anything about them either!

Kurtis

They charge as much as people will pay. 

Kurtis

Tannin said:

There are going to be 10 different answers in this thread, and most likely all of them will be right. To answer the question sensibly, we really need to be more specific and single out particular classes of guitar. 

I think one of the more subtle factors to consider is the huge variation in actual hands-on time per instrument, or to put it the other way about, the big differences in the number of guitars produced per year per worker. 

High quality acoustic guitars result from highly skilled people taking as much time as they need to get things exactly right. 

Note that once you step into the higher end of acoustics, the "manufacturing rules" change. If you are running a guitar factory - let's say you are Martin or Taylor - you work out what thickness an average Sitka Spruce top needs to be to be strong enough to last for 30 years. Let's say that's 3mm. Then you add a bit to that because some individual bits of spruce are going to be weaker than average, so we say 4mm. (Numbers are purely for example, not intended to be actual thicknesses.) So now you run all your spruce through the thicknesser and it all ends up exactly 4mm thick. It's a cheap way to do things and reasonably effective.

Now suppose you are aiming higher, and prepared to accept that you'll be making fewer guitars per worker-year. You don't plane to a thickness, you plane to a certain measured rigidity. (Or you might do it the old-fashioned way by tapping and listening.) Either way, every top you make is different. Each one is hand-finished to suit the characteristics of the particular piece of wood. You are probably more ruthless about throwing out discards too, ones that don't quite cut the mustard. Result: you are now spending probably 10 times more on labour to make the same number of tops. 

---- Back later. Mrs Tannin and I are about to watch the last episode of Ghosts. Great show, we love it. 

I was wondering the other day (more about electrics tbf) how many bodies/tops/piles of wood are thrown away because they don't "tap" good enough.

For electric guitar bodies I can't see it being many.