Yes, string choice

Amigo

I know, this can be talked about until the cows come home, but I wanted to know what strings do people find works on cedar-topped acoustics. I acquired an Auden Emily Rose Neo, cedar top and mahogany back and side, 12-fret parlour-sized. It had old strings, so I replaced them with something from what I had lying around, which is D'Addario Phosphor Bronze Lights (12s), uncoated. To my ear it sounds like there is more to the sound of the guitar than these strings give, and with its being my first cedar-topped guitar I was wondering what other people use on their similar guitars, to avoid going down the rabit hole of 10 string sets in 10 weeks, as is my wont...

Winny_Pooh

Try 80/20 daddario or Newtone masterclass PB

Tannin

An interesting question @Amigo! ;

I have played and very much enjoyed an Auden parlour not unlike yours. That was a 12-fret Marlow in cedar and rosewood. Its owner had a set of ill-suited nickel strings on it which didn't do it justice. I bullied him into putting on a phosphor bronze set, D'Addario EJ16s because that was all he had lying around the house. While I don't much care for EJ16s they were certainly a vast improvement on the nickels.

So what should we aim for with your Auden? Chances are it's going to be a bit light on for bass (being a parlour) and possibly a bit over-strong in the mid-range (both for that reason and because mahogany is like that - though according to their website this model uses "African mahogany" which is actually khaya). 

So we can (probably!) rule out brass strings (also called "80/20s") which will be too shrill, and also strings which are weaker than average in the bass (e.g. Adamas, Mapes, Newtone). 

What about I think of as the "European sound"? By this I mean strings which are smooth and warm almost (but not quite!) to the point of being bass-heavy. Examples are Dragão D100, Philippe Bosset, and R. Cocco. John Pearces aren't a million miles away from that sound either. I suggest trying one of these (probably the lovely Dragãos, which are half the price of Bossets and Coccos) to see whether that takes your guitar in a nice direction. If you like them, try a couple of the others.

But I reckon that unless you want to improve on a specific aspect of the EJ16s and choose a string on that basis, your best bet is to start with a good, full-bodied orthodox phosphor bronze string such as Darco, Martin, GHS, John Pearse, Augustine, Galli LS, DR Sunbeam, Pyramid Western Folk, or SIT Royal Bronze. Any of those will give you a more balanced, fuller-bodied voice than the D'Addarios. Start there and see where it takes you.

Or, of course, make 10 string changes in 10 weeks.

Tannin

I've done a quick re-organise of my string notes to focus only on the ones I've tried on my one and only cedar-top guitar, a Maton dreadnought with Queensland Maple back and sides. Queensland Maple is often said to sound "like mahogany" which it doesn't really. It's a softer, lighter timber than mahogany and has a less middly, more balanced sound. (Come to think of it, your Auden isn't mahogany either, it's khaya which on paper is very similar to Queensland Maple. Whether it sounds like it too I don't know.)

All that said, these notes relate to a cedar DREADNOUGHT and, while relevant, won't be directly applicable. All are phosphor bronze unless otherwise stated. You will almost certainly do better with phosphor bronze on a small cedar and khaya parlour than with brass.

Tannin

EXCELLENT:

* Darco D220. 12-54 $9.83 £5.27. Bright at first, but good. Long-lasting, great sound, great price. Very hard to go past these.

* GHS Americana 12-54 $16.50 £9. Pretty strings! The plains are gold coloured. It know it is is silly but I like that. I like the strings too. A light-voiced, well-balanced sound very well-suited to this cedar dreadnought. The longer I leave these on, the better I like them: they seem to become fuller and richer. Very long-lasting too, so good value for money.

* John Pearse 12-53 $15 £8.50. Fairly high tension for a set of 12s (similar to Elixirs) but not unpleasant. An excellent, well-balanced and versatile sound. Last well. In my view a particularly good implementation of a plain, traditional recipe. One of the darker-sounding phosphor bronze sets around, which might be ideal.

GOOD:

* Galli LS12-54 $12.50 £7. My #1 favourite strings on one or two other guitars. On the cedar top Maton they feel quite soft and have a pleasant light twang fresh on. Played in they remain excellent, though not as outstanding as they are on spruce or Huon Pine.

* Darco brass 12-54 $12 £7. Strings with two faces: fresh on somewhere between shouty and shrill, nasty; after a week: still a very present top end but balanced other than when strumming (which gets a bit over the top). Improve further as they age.

* Ernie Ball Earthwood 12-54 $17 £9.50. Decent strings, fairly high tension and very rough finish which produces excessive squeal, but a bright and present sound.

* Godin A6 12-53 $14 £8. Rather light for 12s. A pleasant, middly sound with bass and treble both a bit subdued. Last reasonably well. Good strings.

* La Bella Golden Alloy (brass) 12-52 $14 £8. Strings with their own distinct character. Much lighter than standard 12s, more like 11s. They don't have a lot of body, a thin, almost tinny sound fresh on, but they feel great - as supple and easy under the fingers as round cores - and the tone soon settles down to something sweet and pleasing. Beware: they squeal like crazy: a 9 out of 10 on the squeak-o-meter. 

* Rotosound Jumbo King bronze 12-54 $12, £7. Good ordinary strings, moderately high tension, a pleasant, raspy feel and a good standard sound.

* SIT Golden Bronze (brass) 12-52 $10.50 £6. Pleasant, no surprises, nothing unusual to note, a good everyday 80/20 string. 

* SIT Silencers (semi-flat 80/20 brass) 12-52 $13.50 £7.50. Odd strings, supposed to be "compression wound" and semi-flat surfaced for noise-free fretting, but in practice they squeal more than a bit. Nevertheless, they are among my favourite strings with a nice feel and a warm, medium-bright sound (more cut-through than a phosphor bronze string, not as shrill as a standard 80/20 - a happy medium, in fact). By far the best and most musical of the various semi-flat or ground round strings, albeit the least effective at reducing squeal.

SO-SO:

* Career bronze wound 12-54. $10 £5. Unimpressive. Thin and weedy sound, unpleasant feel not unlike D'Addario EJ16s (which I don't much care for either). Improve with time on but don't improve enough. Not the worst of strings but there are many better ones.

* Elixir Nanoweb 12-53 $30 £17. For: last a long time (PR bullshit notwithstanding, more because they are hard, high-tension strings and less because the coating is "magic" - completely uncoated Dunlops last a long time too). Very clean sound with very low fretting-hand squeal. Against: stiff and hard on the fingers; unpleasant slippery feel; sterile sound; very expensive. Love them or hate them, they are what they are.

* Fender brass 12-52 $10 £5.60. Pleasant enough strings and very cheap but not among my favourites. A bit too light at the gauge - feel more like 11s than 12s. The sound is decent but a bit gutless.

* Fender brass 13-56 $10 £5.60. Remarkably different to the 12s. I don't think the strings are different as such, it's simply the extra tension on the guitar which changes the sound *a lot*. An excellent taut, full sound but too much like hard work!

* Mapes American String 12-53 $14 £7.32. A light, pleasant sound and feel. Shame about the branding.

* Martin Retro (monel, a nickel alloy) 12-54 $25, £14. Excellent, in a weird way. Flat, metallic, but warm too. Nice and smooth under the fingers, and very quiet (hardly any left hand string squeak). They last *forever*! Over 6 months and they still sounded much the same as they did in the second week. Monels sound dreadful for the first few days, you *must* stick with them until they play in. I really, really like the feel (smooth, gentle, but none of that slickness coated ones have) and the lack of string noise. All that said, the sound is just not right for a cedar-top guitar. Cedar's natural sweetness and the monel's natural metallic flatness simply don't go together.

* Picarto 80/20 12-54 $19 £9.50. Good strings with a good sound and a nice feel but I've gone off the 80/20 sound and I swapped them out while they still had plenty of life left in them.

UGLY:

* Eko ACB1253M $7.30 £3.89 12-53. Very, very cheap. Sound like it.

* Dunlop Phosphor Bronze 12-54 $10 £6. High-tension strings, brash, shouty, and very loud. With a few days of solid wear on them they become less objectionable - but not much less. A good clean ringing treble is a plus but there are too many minuses. Very stiff strings, hard work to play. 

* Stringjoy Naturals. 12-54. $22.40 £12.50. Very nice for the first day: good sound, well balanced, good feel - soft under the fingers but not sloppy. Sadly, once played in they are dull and lifeless. And very expensive! 

WORTH A TRY:  (strings I haven't tried on cedar but which strike me as good possibilities)

* Augustine Phosphor Bronze 12-53 $12 £7. Not unusual in any way other than being very good strings with a lovely clear sound, and good value for money.

* Curt Mangan round core 12-53 $15.50 £9. Bright, rather twangy strings which are nevertheless pleasant and melodic with good feel. Not sure if these would work on cedar or not.

* DR Sunbeam 12-54 $14 £8. Soft and responsive feel, a lively, balanced, rich, sound. 

* GHS Phosphor Bronze 12-54 $16 £8. Very nice standard, middle-of-the-road strings, would suit pretty much any guitar.

* La Bella Phosphor Bronze 12-52 $12 £7. Very similar to the La Bella 80/20s mentioned above but with a more orthodox phosphor bronze tone. 

* Optima Bronze Germany 12-52 $24 £13.50. Brassy, bright, well-balanced with a stiff but not unpleasant feel. Expensive!

* Pyramid Western Folk round core 12-54 $18.50 £10.50. Similar to DR Sunbeams; a lovely, flexible feel and a bright, warm, rich sound. Slightly fuller-bodied than the otherwise similar DR Sunbeams.

* SIT Royal Bronze $14.50 £8 12-54. Nice feel, sound a good balance between richness, warmth and ring. These do all the usual things to a higher-than-usual standard.

guitarjack66

@Tannin Have you ever tried Dean Markley strings? They are difficult to get hold of but are a particular favourite of mine,both acoustic and electric. They seem to have some kind of link to JHS (John Hornby Skewes,I think?) manufacturers and/or owners of the Vintage guitar brand. 

TheMadMick

I have to say that I had an Auden Emily Rose and I didn't really get on with t. As you say, the sound didn't seem quite right although the bass is impressive for a small guitar. Also, I prefer more fret board real estate. Eventually, I moved it on, Deep Blue Witch bought it and you might like to PM him to find his thoughts on the matter.

Tannin

Cheers @guitarjack66, yes, Dean Markley strings have been around since before the dawn of time. Well, at least since I started buying strings in the early 1970s. 

In fact I have a set on my Mineur right now. Those are Dean Markley 2081 Helix HD, well-priced at $12.50 (£6.50). Unfortunately, I ordered 11s by mistake which are too light for me. They feel good (for 11s) and the sound is light and pleasant. My guess is that the (for me) proper gauge would be worth a try, though probably not on that particular guitar.

I had a set of Dean Markley Blue Steel (£9) on the same guitar earlier this year. They were slightly odd-feeling strings (a bit similar to EJ45s - rather like high-tension 11s) but pleasant enough. The sound was bright and clean, lacking body and bass. A perfectly good sound but not one I liked much, certainly not on the Mineur (which has a very crisp high end and doesn't play nice with toppy strings).

I also have here a Dean Markley 85/15 Vintage Bronze set (£6.95) which I haven't tried yet.

My guess is that the phosphor bronze DMs would be best suited to a guitar with a lot of natural bass and not too much of a treble peak. Something like a D-18 (spruce and mahogany dreadnought) might be the perfect match for them.

But one more thing - I was reminded just today of how very, very important technique is to string choice. I'd just opened a package with several sets of strings from Strings.IE in Ireland and (as vendors often do) they'd included some drink coasters and a couple of picks. I haven't played with a pick for years now but just for something to do I picked up a guitar and played it with a pick for two or three minutes before I got frustrated and went back to using my fingers. 

Such a massively different sound! 

I suppose I could spend 5 minutes playing every set of strings I review with a pick and make notes. But honestly I'm a half-decent fingerpicker but a hopeless klutz with a pick in my hand. Would my impressions even make sense?

EDIT: I'm not up to speed on any link between them and Vintage Guitars.

guitarjack66

Tannin said:

Cheers @guitarjack66, yes, Dean Markley strings have been around since before the dawn of time. Well, at least since I started buying strings in the early 1970s. 

In fact I have a set on my Mineur right now. Those are Dean Markley 2081 Helix HD, well-priced at $12.50 (£6.50). Unfortunately, I ordered 11s by mistake which are too light for me. They feel good (for 11s) and the sound is light and pleasant. My guess is that the (for me) proper gauge would be worth a try, though probably not on that particular guitar.

I had a set of Dean Markley Blue Steel (£9) on the same guitar earlier this year. They were slightly odd-feeling strings (a bit similar to EJ45s - rather like high-tension 11s) but pleasant enough. The sound was bright and clean, lacking body and bass. A perfectly good sound but not one I liked much, certainly not on the Mineur (which has a very crisp high end and doesn't play nice with toppy strings).

I also have here a Dean Markley 85/15 Vintage Bronze set (£6.95) which I haven't tried yet.

My guess is that the phosphor bronze DMs would be best suited to a guitar with a lot of natural bass and not too much of a treble peak. Something like a D-18 (spruce and mahogany dreadnought) might be the perfect match for them.

But one more thing - I was reminded just today of how very, very important technique is to string choice. I'd just opened a package with several sets of strings from Strings.IE in Ireland and (as vendors often do) they'd included some drink coasters and a couple of picks. I haven't played with a pick for years now but just for something to do I picked up a guitar and played it with a pick for two or three minutes before I got frustrated and went back to using my fingers. 

Such a massively different sound! 

I suppose I could spend 5 minutes playing every set of strings I review with a pick and make notes. But honestly I'm a half-decent fingerpicker but a hopeless klutz with a pick in my hand. Would my impressions even make sense?

EDIT: I'm not up to speed on any link between them and Vintage Guitars.

I think that the link may have something to do with Ivor Mairants, who seem to stock both. So probably more to do with the supplier than the brand.

Soupman

@Tannin a good point indeed about technique!
Even different thickness/material of picks makes a difference.
I usually use a thumb pick and fingers which still sounds different from naked thumb & fingers. 
With thumb picks, the material/thickness point still applies.

WBT2079

On my cedar & mahogany super folk size acoustic I use Martin MA540FX. I don’t use a pick at all only fingers and I find that these give the best balance between strumming and finger style.

Tannin

^ Same strings as the Darco ones I recommended above (but in a fancier package). Yes, hard to go past. Especially at the price.

SlopeSoarer

Tannin said:

.... So what should we aim for with your Auden? Chances are it's going to be a bit light on for bass (being a parlour) and possibly a bit over-strong in the mid-range (both for that reason and because mahogany is like that - though according to their website this model uses "African mahogany" which is actually khaya). 

Re "African Mahogany" I suspect it's a term thrown at all sorts of timbers. I see Cort describe Okoume as African Mahogany as shown in this link as an example.

Is this actually miss selling by one of the worlds largest guitar manufacturers?

Sorry for the off topic direction!

Amigo

Thanks a lot to all for chipping in. I should have mentioned that I don't use picks, I never got on well with them, not even a thumb pick, and not even when playing electric. When I play the guitar with the pick it brightens up a bit, to the point that it's almost what I am after. I think that the guitar has bass aplenty for a guitar of this size, if anything it may need more openness, for want of a better description.

I had a look in my cupboards and I found the following sets of strings, accrued over the years and not yet moved on:
D'Addario EJ13 80/20 Bronze Custom Lights (11-52)
D'Addario EJ40 Silk and Steel Lights (11-47)
D'Addario XT Phosphor Bronze Lights (12-53) - sound great on my Auden Austin, spruce/hog
D'Addario XT 80/20 Bronze Lights (12-53)
Martin MM11 Retro Monel Custom Light (11-52)
Newtone Heritage Phosphor Bronze Round Core Lights (12-51)

I will probably try some of the ones above first, while I investigate other options, what would be the suggestion order in which to try them?

Winny_Pooh said:

Try 80/20 daddario or Newtone masterclass PB

I can understand the 80/20 suggestion, as the guitar is quite dark in tone, the 80/20s might open up the sound, I will try the Custom Lights I've got already, and maybe the Newtone as well, although the ones I have are Heritage, not Masterclass.

Tannin said:

An interesting question @Amigo! ;;

I have played and very much enjoyed an Auden parlour not unlike yours. That was a 12-fret Marlow in cedar and rosewood. Its owner had a set of ill-suited nickel strings on it which didn't do it justice. I bullied him into putting on a phosphor bronze set, D'Addario EJ16s because that was all he had lying around the house. While I don't much care for EJ16s they were certainly a vast improvement on the nickels.

So what should we aim for with your Auden? Chances are it's going to be a bit light on for bass (being a parlour) and possibly a bit over-strong in the mid-range (both for that reason and because mahogany is like that - though according to their website this model uses "African mahogany" which is actually khaya). 

So we can (probably!) rule out brass strings (also called "80/20s") which will be too shrill, and also strings which are weaker than average in the bass (e.g. Adamas, Mapes, Newtone). 

What about I think of as the "European sound"? By this I mean strings which are smooth and warm almost (but not quite!) to the point of being bass-heavy. Examples are Dragão D100, Philippe Bosset, and R. Cocco. John Pearces aren't a million miles away from that sound either. I suggest trying one of these (probably the lovely Dragãos, which are half the price of Bossets and Coccos) to see whether that takes your guitar in a nice direction. If you like them, try a couple of the others.

But I reckon that unless you want to improve on a specific aspect of the EJ16s and choose a string on that basis, your best bet is to start with a good, full-bodied orthodox phosphor bronze string such as Darco, Martin, GHS, John Pearse, Augustine, Galli LS, DR Sunbeam, Pyramid Western Folk, or SIT Royal Bronze. Any of those will give you a more balanced, fuller-bodied voice than the D'Addarios. Start there and see where it takes you.

Or, of course, make 10 string changes in 10 weeks.

You make a good point @Tannin about the Phosphor Bronze. I used to swear by Phosphor Bronze myself, but this guitar got me stumped. This peculiar combination of cedar/hog/parlour/12-fret may need something else. Good ideas though, thank you!

TheMadMick said:

I have to say that I had an Auden Emily Rose and I didn't really get on with t. As you say, the sound didn't seem quite right although the bass is impressive for a small guitar. Also, I prefer more fret board real estate. Eventually, I moved it on, Deep Blue Witch bought it and you might like to PM him to find his thoughts on the matter.

I agree, the bass is more than I expected of a guitar this size. I noticed the guitar real estate when I realised that I am fretting chords and notes further away from the frets, but I still find it very interesting in its compactness and its different sound, it fits very well in my arms, somehow, that's why I'd like to try more strings. And thanks for the contact!

Tannin said:

[...]But honestly I'm a half-decent fingerpicker but a hopeless klutz with a pick in my hand. [...]

Ditto!

WBT2079 said:

On my cedar & mahogany super folk size acoustic I use Martin MA540FX. I don’t use a pick at all only fingers and I find that these give the best balance between strumming and finger style.

Interesting, never looked at them, thanks. Are they just thinner core wire and thicker wrap wire?

SlopeSoarer said:

Tannin said:

.... So what should we aim for with your Auden? Chances are it's going to be a bit light on for bass (being a parlour) and possibly a bit over-strong in the mid-range (both for that reason and because mahogany is like that - though according to their website this model uses "African mahogany" which is actually khaya). 

Re "African Mahogany" I suspect it's a term thrown at all sorts of timbers. I see Cort describe Okoume as African Mahogany as shown in this link as an example.

Is this actually miss selling by one of the worlds largest guitar manufacturers?

Sorry for the off topic direction!

Topic off!

Soupman

@Amigo of your existing hoard, the only ones I have tried are the Newtone Heritage. These on a cedar top/laminate b/s Flambeau.
In the past I tended towards Daddario pb but recently tried the NT Heritage 11s & 12s.
The guitar is getting old (like me) and I thought it might appreciate lower tension round core strings.

 They surprised me with their balanced sound and tone, and as a side benefit are easier to get a nice bluesy bend with. I would go as far as to say they are the best strings I have had on this guitar.
I would recommend them, going for the 12s as the 11s are a little too slack for my style.
Best of luck!
 
 

Tannin

Working backwards up the thread - 

SlopeSoarer said:

Tannin said:

.... So what should we aim for with your Auden? Chances are it's going to be a bit light on for bass (being a parlour) and possibly a bit over-strong in the mid-range (both for that reason and because mahogany is like that - though according to their website this model uses "African mahogany" which is actually khaya). 

Re "African Mahogany" I suspect it's a term thrown at all sorts of timbers. I see Cort describe Okoume as African Mahogany as shown in this link as an example.

Is this actually miss selling by one of the worlds largest guitar manufacturers?

Not really insofar as they do add Okoume in brackets after the "African Mahogany".

On the other hand, it certainly isn't a mahogany! Not even close. The true mahoganies are members of the genus Swietenia. There are only three, and only one of current-day commercial significance.

Then you've got the khayas, two or three species in the same family but the genus Khaya. Despite coming from different continents, Swietenia and Khaya are quite similar and although all modern taxonomies place them in different genera, they were once actually all lumped together under Swietenia.  So calling khaya "African mahogany" is only a little bit naughty.  

Okoume, in contrast, is much lighter and softer (far more similar in those respects to Sitka Spruce than it is to any sort of mahogany), in an unquestionably different genus (Aucoumea), and these days not even regarded as a member of the same family. It is at least in the same order (Sapindales) as real mahogany, but them so is lots of other stuff, including Cedro, Australian Red Cedar, all of the maples and sycamores, Queensland Silkwood and Queensland Maple (confusingly, not actually maples), Sipo, Sapele, and many others.

Back to strings!