Visited the shop to try high gain heads for my daughter. Left empty-handed!

Dave_Mc

I haven't tried it, but GuitarGuitar has that DSL402 for the same price- just in case there's one close enough to you that you can try it first.

Fortheloveofguitar

Laney Ironheart 60 would nail those tones you’re after 

Neilybob

Orange dark terror?

https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/259720/fs-orange-dark-terror-head-269-posted#latest

De_Batz

Thanks for all the comments and advice. 

There are some parameters that govern this particular purchase that wouldn't apply if it was for me - for example, wanting to choose something by trying it extensively first rather than doing the whole remote purchasing thing - and that limits the range over which we can vary. It's also (highly) cost-sensitive, which means that our initial outlay had to be very much at the low end of the range of things suggested. 

What we've done: having read up on the issues that ICBM (et al) have highlighted with the DSL, discussed it with the shop and so on, we've got that amp on a sort-of trial basis. It'll be our job to give it a thorough hammering in the next month - for which it is warrantied.

My take is that with my basic-but-functional knowledge of valve amps, and having read about specific failure modes, we can navigate the pitfalls of the DSL. Watch this space, I suppose. And if it goes kaboom in the first six months, I'll come back on to face the 'I told you so' moment!

ICBM

De_Batz said:

What we've done: having read up on the issues that ICBM (et al) have highlighted with the DSL, discussed it with the shop and so on, we've got that amp on a sort-of trial basis. It'll be our job to give it a thorough hammering in the next month - for which it is warrantied.

My take is that with my basic-but-functional knowledge of valve amps, and having read about specific failure modes, we can navigate the pitfalls of the DSL.

What impedance will it be run at? This does matter - there’s a design fault which means it’s much more prone to failure at 4 or 8 ohms than at 16. You can fix this but it means doing a small amount work inside the amp. If you're interested in doing this I can give more details.

And what cabinet? The modern Marshall 4x12”s with the impedance switching panel are also a cause of failures - the switching goes faulty, especially if the cable gets tugged, and leads to intermittent open circuits which then blow the output transformer. If the cab is one of these I would strongly recommend removing the whole PCB and fitting two standard jacks, wired in parallel, with the speakers hardwired for 16 ohms.

Also, if you can, make sure the amp is biased much cooler than the factory setting - it's far too hot and leads to valve failures. The factory setting is 90mA per pair - set it to 60mA instead. You can do this from outside the chassis if you take the back panel off. (One of the few bits of good design on these amps!)

Hydra

I'd love to know why Richtone only ship certain used amps. 

Jetfire

Hydra said:

I'd love to know why Richtone only ship certain used amps. 

This. I could have done so much damage to my wallet if this wasnt the case.

Weirdly, they will ship some.5 watt valve stuff but not others... 

ICBM

Hydra said:

I'd love to know why Richtone only ship certain used amps. 

Because of the higher risk of damage with many, depending on the physical construction - for example, large high-powered combos are almost impossible to ship and guarantee will arrive safely, since the internal components (speakers and transformers) are so heavy that they will do severe damage purely from their own inertia if the box is dropped, even with the very best packaging. If the amp is used, the shop doesn't have the option of replacing it with another from stock as they would with a new one.

Jetfire said:

Weirdly, they will ship some.5 watt valve stuff but not others... 

Either because they have experience of those specific models being damaged, or because their repairer recommends against shipping certain ones having had a look at how they're built, and seen potential trouble.

De_Batz

ICBM said:

De_Batz said:

What we've done: having read up on the issues that ICBM (et al) have highlighted with the DSL, discussed it with the shop and so on, we've got that amp on a sort-of trial basis. It'll be our job to give it a thorough hammering in the next month - for which it is warrantied.

My take is that with my basic-but-functional knowledge of valve amps, and having read about specific failure modes, we can navigate the pitfalls of the DSL.

What impedance will it be run at? This does matter - there’s a design fault which means it’s much more prone to failure at 4 or 8 ohms than at 16. You can fix this but it means doing a small amount work inside the amp. If you're interested in doing this I can give more details.

And what cabinet? The modern Marshall 4x12”s with the impedance switching panel are also a cause of failures - the switching goes faulty, especially if the cable gets tugged, and leads to intermittent open circuits which then blow the output transformer. If the cab is one of these I would strongly recommend removing the whole PCB and fitting two standard jacks, wired in parallel, with the speakers hardwired for 16 ohms.

Also, if you can, make sure the amp is biased much cooler than the factory setting - it's far too hot and leads to valve failures. The factory setting is 90mA per pair - set it to 60mA instead. You can do this from outside the chassis if you take the back panel off. (One of the few bits of good design on these amps!)

Right, so I read up your older posts on this which was part of the reason I felt comfortable going with the amp in the first place. It's a 16 ohm cab we're running it into, and it is an old one with a single non-switching socket. I've had a look at the pictures which detail the fixes on the outputs, and I think I'll have a go at those wires to sort out the grounding issue with the speakers. I'll check the bias as well while I'm at it. Thanks for all the heads ups and advice - appreciate I'm going against your experience with the purchase!

Dave_Mc

ICBM said:

What impedance will it be run at? This does matter - there’s a design fault which means it’s much more prone to failure at 4 or 8 ohms than at 16. You can fix this but it means doing a small amount work inside the amp. If you're interested in doing this I can give more details.

Also, if you can, make sure the amp is biased much cooler than the factory setting - it's far too hot and leads to valve failures. The factory setting is 90mA per pair - set it to 60mA instead. You can do this from outside the chassis if you take the back panel off. (One of the few bits of good design on these amps!)

Just to clarify, is it the older DSLs that have these problems or the newest one?

ICBM

Dave_Mc said:

Just to clarify, is it the older DSLs that have these problems or the newest one?

The old UK-made ones. The current Vietnamese-made ones don't have the 4/8-ohm switch, they have separate output jacks for the three impedances, and there isn't the idiotic routing of the ground connection through the switch in the 16-ohm jack.

When I stopped doing repair work last year, by that point the new ones had been out for about four years, and I had not seen a single one for anything other than a failed valve. With the UK ones, I started seeing them sooner than that and almost all for *non*-valve issues, mostly serious... like main PCBs with big holes burnt through them.

Dave_Mc

ICBM said:

Dave_Mc said:

Just to clarify, is it the older DSLs that have these problems or the newest one?

The old UK-made ones. The current Vietnamese-made ones don't have the 4/8-ohm switch, they have separate output jacks for the three impedances, and there isn't the idiotic routing of the ground connection through the switch in the 16-ohm jack.

When I stopped doing repair work last year, by that point the new ones had been out for about four years, and I had not seen a single one for anything other than a failed valve. With the UK ones, I started seeing them sooner than that and almost all for *non*-valve issues, mostly serious... like main PCBs with big holes burnt through them.

Brilliant, thanks Still hmming and hahhing over the (new) DSL402 on offer, just wanted to check it didn't have any of these problems!

grungebob

Engl screamer 50.  Got all you need (except for maybe robustness) but they can be had for not much money and sound great. 

ICBM

grungebob said:

Engl screamer 50.  Got all you need (except for maybe robustness) but they can be had for not much money and sound great. 

The words devil and deep blue sea come to mind .

PAL

My advice is buy a single channel amp like the Marshall 20watt studio series they are loud and not too heavy.
  you can then buy various distortion pedals to obtain the sounds you are looking for.
  the more switching and valves in an amp the more there is to go wrong if you buy a high powered valve amp it will normally
  have twice the number of power tube so you will be paying twice the cost to re valve compared to a lower powered
  valve amps and power amps are expensive !
  Also a 100watt amp is  not going to be twice as loud as a 50 watt amp. So the best advice is take your time do some research
  first.
  I was asked to do a jam once and the other guitarist had a 100 Marshall head and 4X12 cab I had Fender 68 Custom 
  Princeton combo and a boiling point overdrive pedal we both had strat type guitars and he was so impressed with what I had he sold the Marshall set up and now uses a DR Z Monza 1X10 20 Watt combo. Hope this helps !

tekbow

Quick question, and I ask sincerely, is your daughter bothered about clean and mid gain sounds?

ICBM

PAL said:

My advice is buy a single channel amp like the Marshall 20watt studio series they are loud and not too heavy.
  you can then buy various distortion pedals to obtain the sounds you are looking for.
  the more switching and valves in an amp the more there is to go wrong if you buy a high powered valve amp it will normally
  have twice the number of power tube so you will be paying twice the cost to re valve compared to a lower powered
  valve amps and power amps are expensive !

Yes and no… it depends. A 100W amp which is played at about 20W and is biased quite cool, will have many times the valve life of a 20W amp biased hot as many small amps are, and turned up to the same volume. So even though it has twice the number of power valves and they may also be more expensive types (although some small amps are using EL34s and 6L6s now), it will probably cost *less* for valves in the long term.

Also… from the description of the sounds this amp is needed for, you need a minimum 50W and possibly 100W high gain amp. If you think you can convincingly do it with a 20W non-MV amp and pedals, you are firstly old and secondly wrong .

Dave_Mc

ICBM said:

PAL said:

My advice is buy a single channel amp like the Marshall 20watt studio series they are loud and not too heavy.
  you can then buy various distortion pedals to obtain the sounds you are looking for.
  the more switching and valves in an amp the more there is to go wrong if you buy a high powered valve amp it will normally
  have twice the number of power tube so you will be paying twice the cost to re valve compared to a lower powered
  valve amps and power amps are expensive !

Yes and no… it depends. A 100W amp which is played at about 20W and is biased quite cool, will have many times the valve life of a 20W amp biased hot as many small amps are, and turned up to the same volume. So even though it has twice the number of power valves and they may also be more expensive types (although some small amps are using EL34s and 6L6s now), it will probably cost *less* for valves in the long term.

Also… from the description of the sounds this amp is needed for, you need a minimum 50W and possibly 100W high gain amp. If you think you can convincingly do it with a 20W non-MV amp and pedals, you are firstly old and secondly wrong .

Agreed... I love both, but they're different tools for different jobs.

grungebob

ICBM said:

grungebob said:

Engl screamer 50.  Got all you need (except for maybe robustness) but they can be had for not much money and sound great. 

The words devil and deep blue sea come to mind .

lol enlighten me sir of the error of my ways? 

Teach me how I’ve wronged. 

ICBM

grungebob said:

lol enlighten me sir of the error of my ways? 

Teach me how I’ve wronged. 

Well, you did mention lack of robustness! Correctly... especially the odd PCB-mounted output transformer which I've had to change a couple of, and is complete incompatible with any other type. The first wasn't too bad, I got one from Engl for a reasonable price. The second, they wanted silly money for it - this wasn't after Brexit either - so I had to modify the chassis to take a more standard equivalent. (I found a Peavey one that nearly fitted, I think.)

They do sound good - although I thought the 'Screamer' and 'Thunder' model names for the two very similar amps were the wrong way round, so I would probably pick the Screamer for this sound even though you might think it would be the Thunder. Not sure if they're a better bet than a (UK) Marshall DSL or not - probably about the same really, hence the comment .