New set-up advice...

AntonHunter

Hello all, I'm putting this here as it helps to try to articulate what I think I need, and you're a knowledgeable supportive bunch who I reckon might help me see the answer.

I'm currently using a Focusrite Saffire Pro40 into a 2013 Macbook Air, which is struggling a bit now with day to day tasks. I also stupidly updated it to Big Sur before reading that the Pro40 isn't supported on that: https://support.focusrite.com/hc/en-gb/articles/360009743339 It works, but have had some glitches while doing other things during recording (naming some files in a separate Finder window introduced some digital artefacts to a take).

I can't afford a brand new Mac, so I'm thinking of a refurbished one. Do I...

1) get the most up-to-date one running Catalina and keep the Pro40? (Any insight as to which model that would be?)

2) get something more up-to-date, sell the Pro40 and buy a new interface. I was maybe looking at the Zoom F8n Pro, as most of what I record is on gigs, so that might be useful. And then I could leave the laptop at home!

3) do something else obvious I've not considered yet?

spark240

I'm not familiar with the Focusrite, but it looks to be over 10yrs old now which is a lifetime in recording.

 Id say eventually you are going to be restricted even more by software updates etc.

Not sure about your budget but as you said the Zoom and so on are pretty good value, are you looking for Mac laptop or mini ?

AntonHunter

Thanks for the reply, I think ideally laptop, but if I went with the Zoom, then I wouldn't need that portability necessarily. Haven't ever considered Mac Minis, so am open to being convinced!

spark240

I think fixing the number of inputs required is the first thing, this will give you a bracket of items to consider, you could look at the Presonus mixers and use a cheap laptop with their Capture software, that works quite well.

So you are wanting to record multi instruments in a Live gig scene then remix elsewhere ? 

Musical_Mystery_Tour

Bin Macs off and get a PC instead; far more bang for your buck and far more software and hardware available. And this is coming from someone who used to work for Apple as an authorised trainer; they are overpriced and underpowered.

AntonHunter

spark240 said:

I think fixing the number of inputs required is the first thing, this will give you a bracket of items to consider, you could look at the Presonus mixers and use a cheap laptop with their Capture software, that works quite well.

So you are wanting to record multi instruments in a Live gig scene then remix elsewhere ? 

Way too bulky for my needs I think, I record gigs I'm playing on, usually that means light weight, quick setup. Currently a Zoom H5n, but wondering about the F8 as an upgrade maybe, if it kills two birds with one stone (ie also allows me a more involved set up by functioning as an interface). I tend to use 8-10 channels on studio-based stuff, but again, I don't have a studio space of my own, so this means churches, rehearsal rooms etc.

The more pressing question is the computer really. I was just assuming Mac as its always been really stable for recording (for 10 years until this last time), but you have me intrigued @Musical_Mystery_Tour ... are PCs likely to be as stable for audio work? What about light video editing? Is Windows OK now or does it still do things like decide its going to update mid-session...?

PolarityMan

Man I loved my saffire pro 40. I have the Scarlett version after finding it increasingly hard to get reliable FireWire on PCs but even though it's the same interface on USB it has never felt as solid to me.

AntonHunter

PolarityMan said:

Man I loved my saffire pro 40. I have the Scarlett version after finding it increasingly hard to get reliable FireWire on PCs but even though it's the same interface on USB it has never felt as solid to me.

Interesting! Not as solid how? Any dropouts or anything? 

I've read that the Saffire Pro40 can be used standalone over the ADAT out, so I might look for something that can take ADAT in. Hate the idea of perfectly good gear getting chucked out!

Musical_Mystery_Tour

AntonHunter said:

you have me intrigued @Musical_Mystery_Tour ... are PCs likely to be as stable for audio work? What about light video editing? Is Windows OK now or does it still do things like decide its going to update mid-session...?

Back when the first Apple Macs came out in '84, up until about the mid-90s, there was a very strong case for favouring the Mac over the PC for creative work. This was because the GUI and interface, featuring a mouse with a single button, was much more intuitive and accessible for people who, in general, were far less computer savvy than everyone is these days. It's why the Mac took off massively in the DTP world and advertising, where a large number of the personnel are typically not great at maths, English and the sciences.

Hence the well known joke: How do you get into art college? Simple, you fail all your exams and then you apply.

These days however, we are all pretty computer literate and used to using mice and windows-driven computer GUIs. Perhaps the best evidence for this is the fact that, as noted, the Macs of old had a single button mouse (which was great for introducing people to using computers), but now Macs have a two-button mouse with a scroll wheel, y'know, like PCs have and have had for years. But this isn't the only thing to bear in mind.

There are vastly more options for software on the PC platform, since it has a much larger user base, and that includes audio software and video editing software. The larger user base and the economy of scale it promotes translates to hardware too, where PCs of a much lower price than a Mac tend to be vastly more capable in terms of computing power than Mac will be. Computer development moves fast too, and so PCs with readily-accessible components are able to take advantage of this, as opposed to a typical Mac, where fitting new parts is at best tricky and expensive and sometimes not even possible.

Compatibility for music applications on the PC platform are almost always better than they are on a Mac, for example. I use Reaper on my PC for studio stuff and Premiere Pro for video editing, these are of course two programs which are available for PC as well as Mac, but that doesn't mean they work as well on both platforms; if you look on the Reaper product page, you'll find that the Mac OS version is less capable than the PC version, with far less plug-in compatibility. Another well-known audio app which is far better on PC, is Adobe Audition, whereby it was severely crippled in order to work on a Mac, having lots of features removed including: MIDI support, VST support,  FLT filters, DirectX effects, clip grouping, Dynamic EQ, Stereo Expander, Echo Chamber, Convolution, Scientific Filters. That's quite a lot of sacrifices to get something to work on a Mac.

Don't get me wrong, the build quality of Macs is great, and they look cool too, which is why poncy ad agencies love them so much even today, but the average PC will blow a Mac out of the water in terms of functionality and bang for bucks. It just makes no sense to have a Mac if you favour substance over style. If you want your business reception to look flashy, get a Mac, but if you want to get stuff done quicker and for far less cash, it's a PC which is the right tool for the job and it's been that way for a very long time now that we are all savvy with computers.

AntonHunter

You've got my attention! I'm going to look at it all.

Whistler

Musical_Mystery_Tour said:

Don't get me wrong ...

I suspect that you have become a victim of your own experience and have a rose-(or PC)-tinted perspective on things. In general there is much evidence that what you say is true in that historically the situation was far from the pretty level playing field that it now is but if I was the arguing sort we could argue the details and you could win 50% and I could win 50%. Where I differ is that my experience suggests that the fairly level playing field means that you will not make a mistake going with one OS over the other. What one person's needs are will differ from the next person's and that is where the details can matter and so care should be taken to choose the most suitable platform for the software and external hardware you intend to use.

andy_k

I am having my own frustrations with both platforms, and the inevitable cross platform support.
If you want to sustain any productivity, you can't rely on a single OS, or piece of software.
Reaper has always been the saving grace for me, and I seem to be having more issues with some of the plugins I use trying to both stay up to date, and keep the anti-piracy thing going.
I am also struggling with a Dell laptop, that seems to be great at most things, apart from the face that it will not recognise headphones being plugged into it without a re-boot.
Usually that happens right in the middle of a creative session, and the flow is completely interrupted while I delve deep into settings, just to get the IO working, and Windows regularly seems to have problems with any PACE licensed software I have installed.
The software is the backbone of any system, and if it only works on one OS, you will struggle down the line if it ties you into one system.
Some of the best machines right now, are obsolete, unfortunately, due to the continuing push forward with tech.
Just get something to work well for what you are doing, and save anything in a cross platform format, ie WAV.

Bod

I'm firmly embedded in the Windows ecosystem, and have used them for music production as far back as the original Cubase For Windows when it was MIDI only.

If you're not tech savvy, and don't have the budget to buy a Windows device that has been proven to perform well with audio production, I'd look at a Mac. 

Issues with DPC latency, CPU core parking and other power management issues mean that you could be chasing problems. It's not that they can't be overcome in many cases, but if you're not the type to spend time googling, changing bios settings and/or installing other utilities too help with all this, it could be a bit of a headache.

Of course, you could get lucky and not experience any of the above for your particular use case, but it's a gamble.

I have put aside my reservations of the Mac's lack of upgradability and the cost however.  PCs are, in my opinion, better value for money, but Macs are more likely to perform better out of the box.

AntonHunter

Bod said:

...

If you're not tech savvy, and don't have the budget to buy a Windows device that has been proven to perform well with audio production, I'd look at a Mac. 

Issues with DPC latency, CPU core parking and other power management issues mean that you could be chasing problems. It's not that they can't be overcome in many cases, but if you're not the type to spend time googling, changing bios settings and/or installing other utilities too help with all this, it could be a bit of a headache.
...

This describes me fairly well, so I think Mac is where I'm heading at the moment. I've got a new SSL 12 interface arriving today, then going to investigate Back Market and Macfinder for a recent-ish Air or Pro, depending on price.

andy_k

Interesting that you have chosen to get the interface before the OS choice, and machine to run it.
When I started my degree, I had already quite a bit of experience using Logic on a 15 inch MBP that I had bought specifically for that purpose, laid out £1700 at the time for a brand new, top spec one, and the £149 for Logic on top was a no-brainer for me.
Previous to that I had been using various Toshiba laptops, and software like Magix to create my music.
I didn't want to carry my investment around a college, so I used a cheap chromebook for all the donkey work research and writing stuff, and used the studios at the uni, which were all fitted out with Macs and Mac pros wired up to various interfaces and control surfaces, the work was also split between one tutor who was pro Logic, and the other who was anti logic, and pro Pro tools, a bit weird really, but it was quite revealing.
Logic is fantastic for the actual creation of ideas, and has a very distinct workflow, but the impression was, a serious producer has to use Pro tools, in a control room, wit good monitors.
Seeing as, at that point, I wasn't a pro, and was more interested in ideas and actually recording them, I made a lot of use of their facilities.
To make my life a bit easier, I picked up a 13 inch unibody MBP, from here, which I pimped out the ram to 16gig, and installed a 2tb hard drive, with the OS running off a 512 SSD. This initially cost me £400 before I added the ram and storage.
That machine is still going well 5 years later, although the OS is frozen on High Sierra I think, which has limited me sometimes.
I had PT installed on it, for some of my uni work, and I was able to simply plug my machine into the colleges interface when needed.
When I realised that PT would be out of reach when I graduated ( student discount on a monthly subscription was £8, vs £30 )
I started to use Reaper, and quickly realised that a lot of the Logic / PT rivalry was a load of old BS, and Reaper was just as capable, and in a lot of ways MORE capable than either of the other 2.
I paid for my Reaper license about 2 weeks after I tried it, and have only just had to pay another £60 now it has reached V7.
Since I did that degree, and have not found fame and fortune in the music business, I have tried to stay on top of the game with my music creation, which is pretty difficult when something like a new OS, or machine architecture ( Apple silicon and M!, and the newer OS) is released which makes a lot of your existing software unusable, and this is a repeating process.
For a while, Win 11 could not be installed on a relatively new PC, and Windows has a lot of the same problems as Apple when it comes to compatability.
At this point, I use a variety of machines / OS / software to create and enjoy my music, each one has its limits, and I wouldn't want to be trying to fulfill all my needs in one place unless I had very deep pockets.
For example, I can still use an older version of Logic, for its drummer feature, which can create a fairly realistic drum arrangement as if played by a real drummer, including varied parts and breaks to suit a song arrangement.
Once that is done, I can then spit out the midi for that song, which can then be played by samples from my Slate SSD5 plugin, which needs an ILok, on my main PC machine, and also requires a massive library of samples.
On this same PC, I have various other drum VST, such as Ugritone, which also use massive libraries of sounds, although storage is a lot more accessible when you use external storage.
Both Slate and Ugritone are cross platform, so they can live on any OS, but it did take a while for Slate to catch up with M1 and Apple silicon, 
If I want to do any recording, I have various interfaces to achieve this, an Appogee into a Mac, ( Appogee tied to Mac OS ), or a Focusrite Skarlet into a MBP, ( focusrite cross platform, if needed) or I use a Zoom R16 for 8 mic input, for drum recording, or band stuff, the audio is then imported into Reaper wherever.
For my composition stuff, I make a lot of use of a piece of software called UNIFY, which is cross platform, and uses some large libraries, so needs a lot of space, and this integrates with all my other VST stuff, from Spitfire, Slate etc, and I use a variety of things that are very fussy about where they live, so I couldn't rely on one machine to get stuff done.
I have even gone as far as using a Raspberry Pi 4 and 5 to do some mixing and mastering projects on my TV, via Reaper and its stock eq and compression plugins, which is an ongoing thing, as I like the idea of taking it into somebodies house to let them see the project on their own equipment.
None of my work is done in a pro capacity, but I have come to realise it is hard to stay on top if you tie yourself to one piece of gear, unless it is a 59 Les Paul, and a Trainwreck.
Of course, YMMV.

AntonHunter

That sounds remarkably complex to have that number of different machines!

Fortunately, I'm not doing any electronic music stuff really, it's all human musicians, usually recorded live in real-time and mixed later, some occasional overdubs more recently. 

andy_k

I had a look at your choice of interface, and it is a nice choice, with a lot of features that sound very useful, expandability and quality.
Some of the features I find a little confusing though, is it really a 12 channel, or is it 4 mics plus 2 instrument level, expandable via another 8 channels with an optical input?
I suppose it is potentially 12, with expansion, and if you are set up in a room you will quickly realise that 4 mic inputs will be limiting.
I could argue that we are all making electronic music these days, as we are working in the digital domain, and it is extremely useful to be working to, at the very least, a midi click track, which makes future edits to any tracks so easy.
My set up, or rather, set ups, are really down to redundancy and necessity, some intentional, and some very unintentional.
I note that your interface comes with 3 months worth of subscription to some of the SSL stuff, and I would be interested to know how that works out for you, as I have recently gained access to a lot of the same stuff due to the merger with Slate, which added a large part of the SSL stuff to the already good value Slate bundle, more studio software than I need really, but I have had good results with the Drum bus and have always liked the idea of the channel strip- which Slate has already copied to great effect.
You will inevitably find you will need the ILok software, to host the licenses for your bundle, and that is something that can cause great frustrations, in my case at least, some things require the dongle, and others will have the license residing on your machine, which can make moving projects around a little complicated.
I would recommend that you ensure that ALL your projects are made in such a way, that you do not rely on any single piece of software being available, and at an early stage you need to decide on a good backup and archive system- before you have too many projects to work on, trust me, everything should be saved as raw audio files, and raw midi if it is used to add overdubs / drum parts etc.
When I was using PT, and later Avid and Apogee stuff, I wasted a fair bit of money with hardware and software that suddenly became obsolete, anybody still using an Apogee Gio, with Logic will know what I mean.
Your Mac may well come bundled with Logic these days, but I suspect it will no longer have the drummer feature, which was pretty amazing untill it got replaced with 'beat designer' or something, and also the built in sampler, which had been around for years, was 'upgraded' which made a lot of sense to some, and no sense to others, as it meant learning a whole new way of working to achieve the same results.
Music production is a journey, and it can be a bit of a rollercoaster ride, especially if you have to try to stay on it, so it is well worth learning to work across platforms in case disaster strikes, and your house burns down, or you lose your laptop while travelling to a job.
Keep us posted with your progress, and I can share any relevant nuggets as I may have been on the rollercoaster a bit longer than you.
Good luck, and have a great ride.

andy_k

If I was doing a lot of band / live recordings these days, I would seriously be looking at this,
https://www.starland.co.uk/zoom-l-12-digital-recording-studio-zoom-l12.html

or possibly this,
https://www.mercury-av.com/sales/Tascam-MODEL_12.html?gclid=CjwKCAiAiP2tBhBXEiwACslfnuE-sq_OgXnsvo3Sy_uqG9cWdwZvPurt7_O54wxiWu1eQ_OiMV4kXxoC7cEQAvD_BwE

and, although I have had a lot of use out of an earlier Zoom device, the R16, which is no longer available, I would probably prefer the Tascam, due to its sexy looks.

Any of the resulting recordings would then be worked on in Reaper, on whatever machine was most available, with probably a few Fabfilter plugins required.

Definitely tempted by the Tascam myself, off to compare specs.